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Calvinism, God's Mercy

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have many Christian friends. Some are Calvinist and some believe one can lose their salvation. On these points we disagree. But I respect them and love them all dearly, they are wonderful Christian brothers.

I like reading John Piper, a Calvinist brother in Christ. So I was reading something he said in a sermon titled "The Absolute Sovereignty of God: What is Romans 9 About". In this he said something that enlightened me about Calvinist and this is why I titled this thread Calvinism, God's Mercy.

Here is an excerpt:

Piper....When I entered seminary I believed in the freedom of my will, in the sense that it was ultimately self-determining. I had not learned this from the Bible; I absorbed it from the independent, self-sufficient, self-esteeming, self-exalting air that you and I breathe every day of our lives in America. The sovereignty of God meant that he can do anything with me that I give him permission to do. With this frame of mind I entered a class on Philippians with Daniel Fuller and class on the doctrine of salvation with James Morgan.

In the class on salvation we dealt head on with the doctrines of unconditional election and irresistible grace. Romans 9 was the watershed text and the one that changed my life forever. Romans 9:11-12 said, "Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call – she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’" And when Paul raised the question in verse 14, "Is there injustice on God's part?" He says, no, and quotes Moses (in verse 15): "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." And when he raises the question in verse 19, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" He answers in verse 21, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?"

Emotions run high when you feel your man-centered world crumbling around you. I met Dr. Morgan in the hall one day. After a few minutes of heated argument about the freedom of my will, I held a pen in front of his face and dropped it to the floor. Then I said, with not as much respect as a student ought to have, "I [!] dropped it." Somehow that was supposed to prove that my choice to drop the pen was not governed by anything but my sovereign self.

But thanks be to God’s mercy and patience, at the end of the semester I wrote in my blue book for the final exam, "Romans 9 is like a tiger going about devouring free-willers like me." That was the end of my love affair with human autonomy and the ultimate self-determination of my will. My worldview simply could not stand against the scriptures, especially Romans 9. And it was the beginning of a lifelong passion to see and savor the supremacy of God in absolutely everything.

What caught my attention was the parts I emboldened. I believe Calvinism could be God's way of snapping those Christians out of self-centerness who otherwise could not learn to be God centered any other way. Just something to think about. Notice how John Piper described his life before embracing Calvinism. Personally, I live my life as John does, God centered, yet I did not need Calvinism to do so.

Just a thought!
 

savedbymercy

New Member
Calvinism, The Tulip Truth's are the Gospel, at least a major part of it. You reject those Truth's, you reject the Gospel !
 

Moriah

New Member
Piper....When I entered seminary I believed in the freedom of my will, in the sense that it was ultimately self-determining. I had not learned this from the Bible; I absorbed it from the independent, self-sufficient, self-esteeming, self-exalting air that you and I breathe every day of our lives in America. The sovereignty of God meant that he can do anything with me that I give him permission to do.
Piper says anything that he gave God permission to do… non-Calvinists do not believe that, nor is that what non-Calvinism amounts to believing. What Piper says about giving God permission, that is what a man says that has been brainwashed and led astray into the false doctrine called Calvinism.

My Master sent people to give the gospel of Jesus Christ; the message came to me; I heard, believed, and did what my Master said to do; how anyone can think that makes man somehow superior is something twisted by the devil.

To say one is in falseness to say we must obey the Master is beyond insanity. God says, "You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13

"But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find Him if you look for Him with all your heart and with all your soul." Deuteronomy 4:29

"…but now God commands all people everywhere to repent." Acts 17:30

"Repent then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, and times of refreshing may come from the Lord." Acts 3:19

"…unless you repent, you too will all perish." Luke 13:3

"Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him and to our God, for He will freely pardon." Isaiah 55:7

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret." 2 Corinthians 7:10

"Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord…because you tore your robes and wept in My presence, I have heard you, declares the Lord." 2 Kings 22:19

With this frame of mind I entered a class on Philippians with Daniel Fuller and class on the doctrine of salvation with James Morgan.
So then Piper gets brainwashed and misled by a couple of men.

In the class on salvation we dealt head on with the doctrines of unconditional election and irresistible grace. Romans 9 was the watershed text and the one that changed my life forever. Romans 9:11-12 said, "Though they [Jacob and Esau] were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call – she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’"

God knows all what we will be like even before He created the world. Even before Jacob and Esau did anything good or bad, God knew what was in their hearts; God knew Esau would trade his inheritance for a bowl of soup! In addition, God knew that Jacob would fight for the inheritance. Esau is the first-born, and represents the Jews, the Jews who were chosen first to be God’s people, and a people who did the works God required them to do to be called His people.

Jacob signifies the Gentiles, the Gentiles did not work, yet they were allowed now to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. All of Romans 9 is about the first born not being the ones with the promise and inheritance. Just look at how Paul brings up first Ishmael, Abraham’s first-born, and Isaac Abraham’s second child. Calvinism does not understand what Paul is explaining, so the demons give to men doctrines to believe in instead of the truth.

And when Paul raised the question in verse 14, "Is there injustice on God's part?" He says, no, and quotes Moses (in verse 15): "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." And when he raises the question in verse 19, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" He answers in verse 21, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?"

God is Wisdom and Knowledge. God knows everyone’s heart. God sees and knows things that we do not know. God hardened the Jews to cut them off because of unbelief, so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. However, the Jews can be grafted back in if they do not persist in unbelief, see Romans 11:23.

Emotions run high when you feel your man-centered world crumbling around you. I met Dr. Morgan in the hall one day. After a few minutes of heated argument about the freedom of my will, I held a pen in front of his face and dropped it to the floor. Then I said, with not as much respect as a student ought to have, "I [!] dropped it." Somehow that was supposed to prove that my choice to drop the pen was not governed by anything but my sovereign self.

But thanks be to God’s mercy and patience, at the end of the semester I wrote in my blue book for the final exam, "Romans 9 is like a tiger going about devouring free-willers like me." That was the end of my love affair with human autonomy and the ultimate self-determination of my will. My worldview simply could not stand against the scriptures, especially Romans 9. And it was the beginning of a lifelong passion to see and savor the supremacy of God in absolutely everything.

Piper spent a semester being manipulated to believe in a twisted mess. That is the story of Calvinists, to be manipulated in to believing a twisted mess. Many people believe they are saved, and had no difficulty getting to that place where they believed they were saved, without even knowing about Calvinism, yet Calvinism is some mind-blowing revelation people think they get sometimes years later. What does that tell you?

What caught my attention was the parts I emboldened. I believe Calvinism could be God's way of snapping those Christians out of self-centerness who otherwise could not learn to be God centered any other way. Just something to think about. Notice how John Piper described his life before embracing Calvinism. Personally, I live my life as John does, God centered, yet I did not need Calvinism to do so.
Just a thought!

How you could possibly think that it is God centered no longer to believe that Jesus died for all men, as the scriptures say, is to be centered to go against the Word of God.
 
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steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Calvinism, The Tulip Truth's are the Gospel, at least a major part of it. You reject those Truth's, you reject the Gospel !

If what you say is true, then unless one believes in TULIP one is not saved, for one cannot reject the gospel and be saved. Therefore, by your words here, you condemn all of those here on this board to hell who do not believe in TULIP.

Is this an accurate observation from me?
 
Moriah: Piper says anything that he gave God permission to do… non-Calvinists do not believe that, nor is that what non-Calvinism amounts to believing. What Piper says about giving God permission, that is what a man says that has been brainwashed and led astray into the false doctrine called Calvinism.
HP: Well said Moriah. What is really sad is the brainwashing that Piper underwent in Romans 9 that has not one thing to do with the individual salvation of anyone, contrary to what Calvinists, AND those leaning hard towards Calvinism falsely assume and teach. Sad but true. :thumbsup:


Notice carefully error in operation. First develop a notion out of thin air concerning free will, a notion that in reality does not exist, then shoot at the paper duck they have created for themselves concerning free will. What a complete and total farse.

When it comes to the truth of free will and Romans 9, Piper is as lost as a white goose in a snowstorm.
 
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The free will granted to man by a Sovereign God is only completely free in the realm of morality, the realm of moral praise or blame. If God is going to blame and punish man for first, the formation of an intent, and second for carrying out that intent if nothing forbids that from happening, man must have a choice to do something other than what he chose under the very same set of circumstances. If the will is not free to choose in matters where moral blame and punishment are involved, it is completely UNJUST to consider any blame or punishment if coercion or force are involved. One might as well blame and try to punish a rock for hitting the ground after one kicks it over a cliff as to blame and punish man for intents and action he is not the direct first cause of.

The fact of blame and punishments directed at sinful man from a Just God, is living and absolute proof, that the will of man is and must be free. When a Just God administers blame and punishment, it is living proof that contrary choice indeed exists and the one blamed or punished is INDEED the first cause of such moral intents and subsequent actions.

If I were to establish a watershed issue that lies between truth and error, it would be the issue of the freedom of the will. To deny freedom of the will in the realm of morality and morals, is to make an absolute mockery of the Justice and Character of a Holy and Just God in establishing blame or praise for moral intents and subsequent actions.
 
I can read, thank you very much, and the way I read you is that you have judged any and all outside of faith in Christ if they deny Tulip. Is that not precisely what you have clearly insinuated sbm?
 

savedbymercy

New Member
hp

I can read, thank you very much

Ok, so now you know ! I have made that statement many many times, I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ ! If people choose to call it calvinsmor whatever, thats on them !

and the way I read you is that you have judged any and all outside of faith in Christ if they deny Tulip.

I judge anyone who does not believe the Gospel as outside the Faith and that is scriptural Gal 1:8-9
 

savedbymercy

New Member
The Great Baptist Minister Charles Spurgeon judged Tulip as the Gospel Truth !

Here are some quotes:

It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170).


I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).


... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

All I can say to this is Amen and Amen !
 
Luther and Spurgeon can say anything they so desire sbm, but you and I are bound to the rules of this forum that prohibit the judging of another's salvation on this forum. You have violated the rules of this forum and as such I have flagged your post, and ask for a moderator(s) to clarify the rules for you since you seem to be unable to read and or comprehend them.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I already answered that question. Why don't you read my posts !
We both have read your posts.
Though HP and I differ on many things we agree on one thing:
TULIP is not the gospel
I would go as far as to say that is a heretical statement to make.
I also do not believe in even one point of TULIP.
But if you even as remotely infer that I am unsaved for that reason, or question the salvation of HP for the same reason, then perhaps it is your own salvation that you need to look into. Salvation does not rely in a man's theology but in what the Bible teaches:

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
It does not say: Therefore being justified by TULIP we have peace with God.
That is heresy, but apparently it is what you believe.
 

savedbymercy

New Member
dhk
We both have read your posts.

Well good, for that is why I post them !

TULIP is not the gospel

Yes they are, very integral parts of the Gospel !

And according to scripture if a man does not believe the Gospel there is no evidence of salvation !

I also do not believe in even one point of TULIP.

You will answer to God for that !

Salvation does not rely in a man's theology but in what the Bible teaches:

Salvation relies on the Work of Christ alone, What Christ did and accomplish and for whom He accomplished and why is The Gospel in all of it's intricate details found in scripture !

Now,no one who rejects those Gospel details of the Gospel of Christ, gives proof of salvation ! You can call it Theology or whatever, if one refuses the Gospel, they give not one shred of evidence of being saved !
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Now,no one who rejects those Gospel details of the Gospel of Christ, gives proof of salvation ! You can call it Theology or whatever, if one refuses the Gospel, they give not one shred of evidence of being saved !
That is true that no man can be saved without the gospel. But TULIP was not invented until more than 1500 years after Christ and the Apostles. I guess all those people before the Reformation were lost. What a joke SBM.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
steaver



There is no evidence of one being saved if they do not believe the Gospel !

Would you be so kind as to share your testimony as to your coming to faith in CHrist? Did you embrace TULIP at that time? Piper says he was saved long before he embraced TULIP, do you think he was unsaved all those prior years?
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
If one does a diligent study of the words, "elect" "election" "chose" and "chosen" throughout the Word of God, one will find an interesting thing.

Nowhere are the Gentiles said to be "elect". Context always reveals the elect to be either the Jewish nation, angels, or Jesus Christ.
 
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