Calvinism in a White Ford Van

[Timtoolman]

Ken too me that sounds like I am glad I am saved and too hell with everyone else. I got mine and praise God He is the greatest. As long as I am elected I love the sovereignty of God.
As for me I have people that I love not saved and pray for their salvation. How can I explain to them that they may not be the elect and God may have raised them for His good pleasure in denying them salvation and condemning them too hell?

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
I know all of that Bill and I admitt your right I am allowing my sense of fair play or equity to be part of my thinking, but I also think there is scriptural reason for believing so. And on the other hand I admitt that it is a scarey thing that I may be telling God how to be God. I ask Him to show though and someday He will.
As too the tone, Hey I am German and lose my temper too. Its more out of frustration on both sides I am seeing.

Mai bruderhalt zusammen in der einheit. </font>[/QUOTE]I am guessing those are german words. Don't know what they mean. Do I have too look them up or will you tell me what they mean?

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Ken too me that sounds like I am glad I am saved and too hell with everyone else. I got mine and praise God He is the greatest. As long as I am elected I love the sovereignty of God.
As for me I have people that I love not saved and pray for their salvation. How can I explain to them that they may not be the elect and God may have raised them for His good pleasure in denying them salvation and condemning them too hell?

and this is exactly the type of misconception that the thread opens up with:

*MISCONCEPTION: Calvinist's are more concerned about getting you to agree with them then they do about God's love, mercy and preaching the gospel.
*TRUTH: The TRUE Calvinist would be grieved over such an accusation. God forbid that he/she would be characterized as uncaring, unloving and nonevangelistic.

It is the message that is used by God to save. What is the message? The gospel. What should the attitude of the Calvinist be to the gospel? Preach it! God is the one who saves. He knows th e elect. The Calvinist can never place himself in the place of God. We do not know the end from the beginning. Only God knows that. But still we are called to preach the message because it is the means by which God will call the elect.

But beyond loving the church we are to display love and compassion to the world...especially to our enemies."

All from the OP.....

Firstly, of course I am elated that once I was blind, but now I see... I will spend all eternity rejoicing over that fact, might as well start now...

Secondly, it is not my job to worry about who is elect and who is not, this has been said repeatedly... my job is to preach the gospel... there is no need to engage in conversation about who might be elect or not... preach the gospel, for it is the power of salvation to all who believe... you don't worry about who might be elect any more then an Arminian preacher might worry about who might come to believe the gospel message as a result of their preaching... if someone doesn't believe, pray for them, plead with them, share the Scriptures with them, who knows... perhaps God may grant them repentance;
2Ti 2:24-26 esv And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
(25) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
(26) and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

blessings,
Ken

 

[webdog]

if someone doesn't believe, pray for them, plead with them, share the Scriptures with them, who knows... perhaps God may grant them repentance;

Not if they were predetermined not to, according to calvinism. You are insinuating God might change His mind and grant repentance if enough prayer and pleading takes place. This sounds like the doctrine of purgatory.

 

[epistemaniac]

no, God never changes His mind, those who are elect are so from all eternity.... I am simply saying that it is not my job to know who is elect, who will come to believe in space and time through the hearing of the gospel. Never the less I am to be obedient to the command to preach the gospel.... there is no contradiction in God using ends (our preaching, praying, witnessing etc) and God using those activities to accomplish His ends, the salvation of the elect...

look, it's no different then God knowing from before the creaton of the world that the Son would be crucified, and that those responsible for this crime will pay for their crime....

Act 2:22-24 esv Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know (23) this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
(24) God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it."

blessings,
Ken

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by webdog:
Not if they were predetermined not to, according to calvinism. You are insinuating God might change His mind and grant repentance if enough prayer and pleading takes place. This sounds like the doctrine of purgatory.

Webdog, how does divine foreknowledge change things? I mean, I'm pretty sure that you, like other non-calvinists, still believe that election is based on God looking down in time to see who would believe, right? Well, then, those people were divinely foreknown before they were ever created. There is absolutely no chance that God could have made a mistake when He looked down the corridors of time to see who would believe.

So, if their faith is foreknown, why plead with men? Why share the gospel? Why pray? They're decision is foreknown, so none of that is necessary, right?

Don't you see how the very philosophical objections that you bring up against Calvinism also apply to your view?

 

[epistemaniac]

CalviBaptist... this issue (absolute divine foreknoledge) logically leads to Open Theism... I see several Arminians here are starting to feel the pressure of this fact... if God foreknows everything with perfect certainity, as classiccal Arminianism admits, then how can man be free in the Libertarian/Arminian sense? If an Arminian, say John Smith, were to come to believe at 3:26 4/20/06, and God knew this to be true from all eternity, how can John be free to do anything else but believe exactly when God knows he will?

blessngs,
Ken

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Not if they were predetermined not to, according to calvinism. You are insinuating God might change His mind and grant repentance if enough prayer and pleading takes place. This sounds like the doctrine of purgatory.

Webdog, how does divine foreknowledge change things? I mean, I'm pretty sure that you, like other non-calvinists, still believe that election is based on God looking down in time to see who would believe, right? Well, then, those people were divinely foreknown before they were ever created. There is absolutely no chance that God could have made a mistake when He looked down the corridors of time to see who would believe.

So, if their faith is foreknown, why plead with men? Why share the gospel? Why pray? They're decision is foreknown, so none of that is necessary, right?

Don't you see how the very philosophical objections that you bring up against Calvinism also apply to your view? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not trying to insinuate that I know everything, or I can figure it all out. It quite frankly hurts my head.

This view has numerous holes in it. Why did God repent of making man? Why did God change His mind with Ninevah? Why did God agree to spare Sodom and Gomorah if there were 10 righteous? Why does God give the command to seek Him? Not have other gods? What do you do with the numerous verses that tell us to seek Him? This in no way refers to open theism, but we just don't know, and can't figure it out.

The difference between us is in that you think calvinism has God, His sovereignty and grace all figured out.

How do you deal with these verses, then? God is just playing games with mankind?

Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
Look to the Lord and his strength;
seek his face always.
1 Chron. 16:10-11

"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the god of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
1 Chron. 28:9

Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God. He removed the foreign altars and the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He commanded Judah to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, and to obey his laws and commands.
2 Chron. 14:2-4

The Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Obed. He went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you."
2 Chron. 15:1-2

Josiah was eight yers old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one yhears. He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and walked in the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left. In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father David.
2 Chron. 34:1-3a

Those who know your name will trust in you,
for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
Psalm 9:10

In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak,
who are caught in the schemes he devises.
He boasts of the cravings of his heart;
he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord.
In his pride the wicked does not seek him;
in all this thoughts there is no room for God.
Psalm 10:2-4

The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the Lord wil praise him --
may your hearts live forever!
Psalm 22:26

The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.
Psalm 34:10

But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you;
may those who love your salvation always say, "The Lord be exalted!"
Psalm 40:16

May those who hope in you not be disgraced because of me,
O Lord, the Lord Almighty;
ma;y those who seek you not be put to shame because of me,
O God of Israel.

.../the poor will see and be glad --
you who seek God, may your hearts live!
The Lord hears the needy and does not despise his captive people.
Psalm 69:6, 32-33

Cover their [the enemies of God, v.2] faces with shame
so that men will seek your name, O Lord.
Psalm 83:16

Glory in his holy name;
let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
Look to the Lord and his strength;
seek his face always.
Psalm 105:3-4

Blessed are they who keep his statutes
and seek him with all their heart.
Psalm 119:2

Evil men do not understand justice,
but those who seek the Lord understand it fully./i]
Proverbs 28:5

Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
Isaiah 55:6-7

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the Lord...
Jeremiah 29:13

"For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, like a great lion to Judah.
I will tear them to pieces and go away;
I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.
Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt.
And they will seek my face;
in their misery, they will earnestly seek me."
Hosea 5:14-15

This is what the Lord says to the house of Israel:
"Seek me and live"...Seek the Lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire.
Amos 5:4, 6

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
you who do what he commands.
Zephaniah 2:3a

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. for everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
Matthew 7:7-8

"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."
Acts 17:26-27

 

[Calvibaptist]

Webdog, I in no way think that myself or any other Calvinist has God all figured out. We can't and we never (not even in eternity) will. He is infinite. We will always be finite in dependence on Him.

But I don't believe that the sovereignty of God and the commands to seek and obey are at odds with each other. I believe they are compatible.

I believe that God is completely sovereign as He says in His Word.

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'

Amos 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?

Psalm 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth

I also believe that man is commanded to choose, seek, repent, believe, obey, etc. I could list all those verses, but you already have.

I also believe that man does not choose, seek, repent, believe, obey, etc.

Romans 3:9-20 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

John 6:43-44 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This is why I believe it takes the miracle of regeneration (done solely by God) for anyone to believe.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Notice the order - regeneration in verse 3

John 3:14-16 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Belief in verses 14-16

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who received Him (believed) did so not of their own (free) will, but of God's will.


This is not an attempt to try to understand the deeper things of God that He has not revealed to us. This is the plain teaching of the Scriptures. The only way to deny it or come up with another view is to ignore these verses. We do not ignore your favorite verses. We just believe they must, in some way, fit with these other verses that are also in the same Bible.

You want to ignore (or re-define) God's sovereignty so that He is not sovereign. You accuse us of ignoring (or re-defining) man's free will so that it is not really free. I believe the Bible for what it says - God is sovereign, man is commanded to repent and believe.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
CalviBaptist... this issue (absolute divine foreknoledge) logically leads to Open Theism... I see several Arminians here are starting to feel the pressure of this fact... if God foreknows everything with perfect certainity, as classiccal Arminianism admits, then how can man be free in the Libertarian/Arminian sense? If an Arminian, say John Smith, were to come to believe at 3:26 4/20/06, and God knew this to be true from all eternity, how can John be free to do anything else but believe exactly when God knows he will?

blessngs,
Ken

I don't really see how this defies free will? Maybe what we should say is God did not make him make one choice or the other but knew wich one. Either way I am not following your logic that what you say above disproves free will.