Calvinism is based upon an assumption

So, really, the people of Ninevah were Jewish, Ruth was Jewish. All who are saved bro. Bill, are elected in eternity by the will of God.

Christ spoke of two flock of sheep because Israel did see the only way to God was through the Law and sacrifice they had been given, all this pointed them to the Christ to come who would embody the Law and the Sacrifice. All this was determined by God before the foundation of the world. Even the election of the nations Israel being the chosen nation of God; down to the election of individuals. Jewish first and Greek next.

To assume God did not elect any but those of Israel is to disregard plain teaching of scripture; or at best to pick and choose scripture while adding assumptions.

I would also like to point out that your view undermines the word of God because it supports the idea that the Bible is subject to relativism. God knows the hearts of men. Jesus stood as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world; this scripture do not limit God's election to those of Israel, nor of any particular dispensation.

In another reply you suggested the thought that I am not of the elect bothered me. It does not, I would not have believed even the Gospel message if not for my position having been one of sanctification through the Spirit to the believing of the truth.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Your saying my argument is flawed, yet this is the premise for your entire argument.

"this". when used grammatically correct refers to both grace anf faith. My wife is a teacher and she could give you a lesson if necessary.

If this is how you debate, there is nothing more to debate about. I will "label it" as you say to be foolish.

Thanks for at least presenting something new. I am sorry you do not except the scriptures for what they are.

 

Bro. Bill said:

Rufus answers:

First, let me remind you of John’s purpose in writing, as stated in John 20:30-31: “And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.”

Second, let me remind you of the structure of John’s Gospel: Incarnation (1:1-1:18), Presentation of Jesus (1:19-4), Opposition to Jesus (5-12), Preparation of Disciples (13-17), Crucifixion and Resurrection (18-21)

Third, the passage John 15:16 is part of Jesus’ preparation of His disciples for His upcoming death. Of course, He is addressing them in private. But it is definitely a non sequitur to affirm that passages addressed to the disciples in private do not apply to all believers. Remember why John is writing THESE THINGS! Your conclusion is irrelevant because it does not logically follow from your premises.

Fourth, have you not shifted the burden of proof? Normally, when someone proposes a “new position” it is up to them to offer proof for that position. One’s ability to prove or disprove something establishes neither the truth or falsity of the opposite position. Check out the logicians on this!

Fifth, your statement-- “The fact that the apostles were not saved by grace through faith. But we are! Jesus said to Thomas, "You believe because you've seen me, but blessed are they who do not see me but still believe." Thomas came to believe in a different way than we do.”--is FALSE. See Paul’s statement: “For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it. (2 Corinthians 11: 2-4)

Lastly, do you know what Apriorism is? To start out with a theory or conclusion first and use them to decide whether to accept certain facts is the wrong way around. I assure you, the Bible I read only knows ONE SALVATION and it is “by grace through faith.”

Rufus IMHO

 

I think you may have this wrong. I know of no Calvinist (or any other scholar, for that matter) who says THAT refers back to grace, for by definition grace (as Paul uses the word) is a gift and not of ourselves. Some say it refers back to the word faith, since faith is closer to "that" and the greek pronoun translated "that" usually refers to something close; and the rest say it refers back to salvation--the whole salvation process which includes faith because "that" is neuter and "faith" is feminine.

 

No he doesn't. He says it refers to "salvation". See page 289 of The Epistles to colossians, to Philemon, and to the Ephesians.

 

Hey Bill! Why have you not responded to the two quite substantial posts I made last night? I am of course assuming it is because you can't refute my claims.....

(Sorry, I couldn't resist a little goading in return...)

 

Yet to what I posted, you say that was not Paul's intent. WHy is it that you can make assumptions and I cannot? I think the only reason you do not like where scripture leads is that you fear it. You never truly addressed my arguement. And like Russell55 I am waiting to hear what nonsence you give to dispute his long posts from last night. Don't write us off because you cannot refute the scriptures.

 

I think the whole discussion of saved by grace is bogus. If you understood the nature of Grace you realize that there is no saving power in grace. The saving power is what Jesus said it is, belief in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.

Needless to say, without God's grace, man would not have the opportunity to hear God's word, and to believe, because without grace, the very first sin man commits would be fatal. The wage for sin is death.

God's grace has been present since the beginning of Creation. And truly everyone who was, is, and will be saved, are saved by human belief in the Creator God. It was by faith that our forefathers were counted righteous before God. It was by lack of faith that men are counted as unrighteous before God. Passivity is no excuse, because if you do not actively believe in God, in His Son, even on his son's name you are self condemned, Jesus said so!

Now back to Grace. What does grace do that saves? What about Grace saves?

It was not Grace that knocked Saul to the ground on the Damascus road, else grace would knock us all to the ground. It was not Grace that blinded Saul, else all would be likewise blinded.

The way I understand God, that which is good for one of his created men is good for all, and that which is bad for one is bad for all, else God becomes a respecter of man. The variations lie in what man perceives and believes, and that is why it is imperitive that each individual man through his own free will is able to and responsible for believing in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit; and to behave according to his belief in them.

Grace provides the breathing room for man to hear and believe. But believing is what saves.

 

I have to say I misjudged you, Yelsew. I thought that your statement about not being able to blame Adam was your crowning achievement, but you've already outdone that:

 

This is wrong.

Many millions have faith; but not saving faith;

It is your iniquity that has seperated you from God. Not lack of faith.

All your righteousness is as dirty wrags.

Even those who exercise faith in God, Jew, and Muslim for example (each look to the God of Abraham, who Biblically is the God of Christians, but neither look to God through Christ). Your statement makes it unnecessary for even this to occur.

C.H. Spurgeon once said: (paraphrased) I never turned away, nor otherwise discouraged any from the calling into the ministry when they came and made application to the Pastor's College. Except in the instances where answers concerning doctrine were answered as such:

I am prepared to accept whatever doctrine the school teaches.

These, Spurgeon says, and rightly so, have need to return to the Sunday School class and learn the first principles of the faith.

Your statement negates even your view of the responsibility of man. How? By stating what you have you say until man has faith or lack thereof, he is not condemned. The Bible teaches man is condemned because of sin and Christ has paid the price required of a Holy and Righteous God, thus by His sacrifice He has bought Redemption. That Redemption is found needed not because man does not believe but because man is sinful.

Man's problem, what caused the fall, is the problem yet, pride. Yea. Man was deceived, but scripturally we learn the woman fell through deceit, man (Adam) fell willingly. This left all his posterity destitute.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

1- Define faith.
2- Define saving faith!

 

There are all sorts of faith. In speaking of faith we could be speaking of a body of doctrine.

This is out since you have no use for doctrine.

There is a faith in a Supreme Being, one who is recognized as the maker and sometimes the initiator of this universe; who is God.

Neither of the above are saving faith.

Saving Faith--Faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, born of a virgin, reconciling man to God because of His Righteousness; who is the Word of God.

Many millions possess the above two examples of faith; many millions possess Saving Faith; God and His Christ know them all apart.

Bro. Dallas

 

Bro Bill,

You still have not answered me. If WE are the workmanship of God, set apart to do good works, works that are fore ordained, how can we not be predestined also? Can God ordain good works for those He has not predestined?