Calvinism is based upon an assumption

We all bring assumptions and preconceptions to our understanding of the Bible because of our upbringing, environment, life experiences, personality, aptitude, human frailties such as prejudices, etc.

Anyone who claims otherwise is either ignorant about himself or lying.

The path to truth is to overcome all of these things and none of us will ever come close to accomplishing this while we live in unredeemed fleshly bodies. Thus, we should enjoy the journey of faith as we hopefully at least come closer to truth.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

2 Thessalonians 2-13. One more scripture taken out of its context to prove a point that it does not prove.

First, verse 13 cannot stand alone because it is followed immediately by verse 14 that says to wit "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God"

Second, You cannot believe that from the beginning God said that the Thessalonians are chosen. But rather, in accordance with verse 14 that those who hear and believe are chosen.

Third, Paul is claiming the Thessalonians as all of you pastors claim your flocks. Each of you are rightly proud of your people as Paul is proud of his Thessalonian believers. NO he does not take credit for them believing, he gives the credit to the gospel and the Holy Spirit. He understands that He is only the delivery boy.

Fourth, Paul would say this same thing about any and all groups of believers, calling all of them the elect or chosen. Every church that Paul writes to receives the same kind of accolades and encouraging words. They all receive the same kind of admonishments though the content may be different due to the circumstances from which the church comes and the situations within the church that he is made mindful of. For example, he writes to the Romans differently than the Greeks because the Romans were exposed to different influences than the Greeks. He writes differently to the Ephesians than he does to the Colossians because of knowledge of the activities and influences surrounding each.

 

Yes, he would, because all groups of believers are of the elect.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Verse 14 states what makes them 'the elect'

 

Yes it does.

"Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

but vs. 14 is bound to vs. 13 because it is vs. 13 "Whereunto" we are called.

Whereunto are we called? to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, thus all who are called are called (through the gospel) and will not fail to obtain of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. why not? 'because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:' Thus we believe the truth because we are from the beginning chosen to seperated through the Spirit and we obtain to this glory of our Lord Jesus Christ by the gospel; because we are called through the gospel message; here also is the effectual calling of the elect.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

What is the purpose of the evangalist if not to make the call by proclaiming the Gospel. The Gospel is the knowledge by which one comes to belief thus answering the call. The Thessalonians who were before Paul, unbelievers, came to believe when Paul preached to them the Gospel.

These Thessalonians like the Philippians, like the Ephesians, Like the Colossians, Like the Galations, and the Corinthians, believed the Gospel message that Paul delivered to them and they thus became the elect because they believed, not because they were marked before creation, but because the Word of God sent forth does not return void.

 

Read Acts 13 to see who seperated Paul unto the work he was called to do; which was to preach the gospel before the multitudes of unbelievers whereby they are able to hear the call.

You are correct, the word of God will not return void, but this does not mean as we would suspect that it always returns having men to believe that word. But would fall back to a purpose for which it is sent whereever it is sent to known only to God; in this way does it not return void.

The Gospel of the Kingdom was proclaimed to Israel; few believed; but it was purposed in order that the kingdom be offered to Israel first, being rejected the Gospel is sent to the Gentiles.

Look back at your Gospels and determine the difference in the preaching of John and of Jesus and that of the apostles. John and Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God is at hand, and they did this because the King was among his people. Israel rejected him as King and thus the Gospel is sent to the nations.

Any way you cut it no thing happens under the sun except God has decreed it as such. Whether we count it as good or as evil befalling us all is purposed according to the Will of God.

Or maybe we should believe that God purposed to exalt Joseph above his brethren and looked down one day and found they had sold him into slavery, so God had to make the best of it and work with what He had.

God does that which is His pleasure.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

The evangelist has no purpose if he is evangelizing for any reason except that he has been seperated unto this work by the Holy Spirit. His purpose is to proclaim the Gospel and God open the ears of those who are his audience. Too many evangelists are trying to do the latter and in so doing they are leaving off the former.

Bro. Dallas

 

Does God having foreknowledge of all that is to take place, imply that God is directing all that is to take place?

OR does God not set the stage in which we do the acting, the responding, the choosing?

I believe the latter, but add that God remains part of the scene and not just the landlord. I believe that God influences those who will believe to continue without fear, and that he nurtures the belief of those who do believe.

I do not believe that only the elect will be saved, because neither the Word of God nor any of you have convinced me who the mysterious "elect" may include. Are the elect of 2000 years ago the same elect of today? Or is there only one elect?

 

Bro Bill,

If God has preordained the work and not the workers, then there is a possibility that that work may fail if man does not cooperate with God, therefore he couldn't have preordained the work without preordaining the worker or he would have only had too cross his fingers and hope that some may be saved to get the work he had preordained done.

It is the save principle as limited atonement. Did God save men on the cross, or did he just make it possible for men to be saved? If he does not ordain the means, how can he ordain the ends?

 

Does the Architect of a great building dictate who builds the building? or how many? or what type? Neither does the one who finances the building. The one who wants the building asks the architect to design, when design meets the requirements, the "owner" hires a Contractor to produce, the contractor secures the hirelings who actually do the building.

Joe Blow Hammerswinger is not foreordained to build the building, but he will get the call to tryout for the work among many other Hammerswingers. During the build of the building workers of all types wearing all colors of uniforms will be called upon to build the building. None of the workers are foreordained, each gets a call to which they must respond. Their response determines whether or not they are part of the building.

 

Does the Architect of a great building dictate who builds the building? or how many? or what type? Neither does the one who finances the building. The one who wants the building asks the architect to design, when design meets the requirements, the "owner" hires a Contractor to produce, the contractor secures the hirelings who actually do the building.
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The only problem with your analysis is that God is the Architect; the financier; the one who wants the building designed; the one who determines building specs.; the owner; the contractor; and yes, even the hireling; for our God and our Saviour is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; and all these three are one; All the above tasks are performed by one and the same in the fulfilling of three offices. Christ his son is the hireling who took upon himself the task of building and completing the building.

Bro. Dallas

 

Good answer.

You are saying that man cannot fail to cooperate with God? Because man is foreordained by God. How do you account for the many skidrow down and outers that used to be faithfuls in the church? Did God foreordain that too?

 

2Tim.2:8-10"Remember Jesus Christ,risen from the dead,the offspring of David,as preached in my gospel,9.for which I am suffering,bound with chains as a criminal.But the word of God is not bound!10.Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect,that they may also obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." sounds to me that Paul is certainly not speaking of the apostles here in this passage as being the elect.Michael

 

God must make their conversion true. He must turn them to Himself and then they will be turned. A man coming on the grounds of his own will; will ultimately fall away; he has not the Spirit indwelling him, therefore, he has not the means to remain faithful church members. Being faithful church members is not equated to being saved.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Then you do not believe the Parable of the Sower?

There is not one who comes to belief in God who already has the Spirit of God within prior to believing. That is impossible!