Calvinism Is Not...

[webdog]

That is incorrect, however the Bible does say God has chosen us:

You should really put the Scripture you are quoting on the screen so the reader can read those verses in context (dealing with the choosing of the twelve) :BangHead:

 

[webdog]

Why would you tell someone they need to change the word of God?

...and quoting Scripture out of context is not changing it? It's the same thing. I would rather read a hyperbolic statement than a true one butchered.

 

[reformedbeliever]

...and quoting Scripture out of context is not changing it? It's the same thing. I would rather read a hyperbolic statement than a true one butchered.

Then quit butchering them.

 

[webdog]

What Scripture have I even posted on this thread, much less butchered?

Here's a butchered one if I've ever seen it...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1222828&postcount=18

 

[skypair]

dalec,

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,...

Only problem here is you make a general deduction based on a statement Jesus made about choosing His 12 disciples. Do you think anything could be more purposely and wildly misleading?! And how many times do you think you have personally used this same verse to say the same thing despite the "catcalls" you are getting from real biblical scholars?

I mean, this kind of "red herring" does not get us anywhere, bro.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

dalec,

Do you think anything could be more purposely and wildly misleading?!

skypair

Is that SP saying this in reference to someone other than himself ?!

 

[skypair]

Is that SP saying this in reference to someone other than himself ?!

Rip, rip. :tear: I guess, right or wrong, I'll always have you as the "albatross" around my neck -- the "thorn in my flesh" -- won't I?

skypair

 

[PK]

dalec,

Only problem here is you make a general deduction based on a statement Jesus made about choosing His 12 disciples. Do you think anything could be more purposely and wildly misleading?! And how many times do you think you have personally used this same verse to say the same thing despite the "catcalls" you are getting from real biblical scholars?

I mean, this kind of "red herring" does not get us anywhere, bro.

skypair

Good Point!

 

[PK]

I know the answer! Pick me, Pick me...

The answer is, "Calvinism is not TRUE":laugh:

 

[Dale-c]

I know the answer! Pick me, Pick me...

The answer is, "Calvinism is not TRUE":laugh:

Just out of curiosity, have you ever read ROmans 8 and 9 togther, all the way through?

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

I know the answer! Pick me, Pick me...

The answer is, "Calvinism is not TRUE":laugh:

Can you explain these verses to me? I am having trouble understanding them from a non-calvinist perspective.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Amy.G]

Can you explain these verses to me? I am having trouble understanding them from a non-calvinist perspective.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Luk 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

 

[Rippon]

Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Luk 16:29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

You're not setting up verse 45 of John 6 as a counter to verses 37-39 and verse 44 , are you Amy ? It doesn't oppose the other verses from the chapter .

I don't see the bearing that the verses from Luke 16 have upon the verses from John 6 ."Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me ."(Jn.6:45 )

 

[Amy.G]

You're not setting up verse 45 of John 6 as a counter to verses 37-39 and verse 44 , are you Amy ? It doesn't oppose the other verses from the chapter .

I don't see the bearing that the verses from Luke 16 have upon the verses from John 6 ."Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me ."(Jn.6:45 )

It seems to me that the Father has drawn them through His revelations of Himself to the prophets. This is how the Jews learned from God. If they believed the prophets, then they also believed God, and those who learn from the Father "come to Me". This is because Christ was spoken of by the prophets all through the OT. If they had believed God and learned from the prophets concerning Christ, they would not have crucified their Messiah. Instead they would have come to Him.

I used the verses from Luke to point out that God expected them to know of their Messiah based on the prophets that God had sent to them.

 

[Rippon]

It seems to me that the Father has drawn them through His revelations of Himself to the prophets. This is how the Jews learned from God. If they believed the prophets, then they also believed God, and those who learn from the Father "come to Me". This is because Christ was spoken of by the prophets all through the OT. If they had believed God and learned from the prophets concerning Christ, they would not have crucified their Messiah. Instead they would have come to Him.

I used the verses from Luke to point out that God expected them to know of their Messiah based on the prophets that God had sent to them.

The verses quoted from John 6 are referencing those who are savingly drawn to the Lord .The verses in Luke are speaking of folks who have heard but have not learned . The people in Luke are not savingly united with the Lord .

 

[Amy.G]

The verses quoted from John 6 are referencing those who are savingly drawn to the Lord .The verses in Luke are speaking of folks who have heard but have not learned . The people in Luke are not savingly united with the Lord .

That was my point. The ones who learned of God through the prophets were the ones God gave to Christ. They believed God. Therefore, when the Messiah came, they recognized Him. They were drawn to Christ by the Father.

The people in Luke did not believe the prophets. They did not learn from the Father. They did not know the Messiah. They were not given to Jesus by the Father.

 

[TCGreek]

That was my point. The ones who learned of God through the prophets were the ones God gave to Christ. They believed God. Therefore, when the Messiah came, they recognized Him. They were drawn to Christ by the Father.

The people in Luke did not believe the prophets. They did not learn from the Father. They did not know the Messiah. They were not given to Jesus by the Father.

Amy, this is good. :thumbs:

 

[Linda64]

The number saved will be as the sand of the seashore, unable to be counted. But in comparison to the whole sum of the human race, it will be few.

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

It's not the saved who will be as the sand of the sea...those spoken of in Revelation 20:8 are the ones who will follow Satan in the final rebellion AFTER the Millennium.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Amy.G]

It's not the saved who will be as the sand of the sea...those spoken of in Revelation 20:8 are the ones who will follow Satan in the final rebellion AFTER the Millennium.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This is what I was referring to:

Gen 22:17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which [is] on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Gen 32:12 For You said, 'I will surely treat you well, and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.' "

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This is what I was referring to:

Gen 22:17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which [is] on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Gen 32:12 For You said, 'I will surely treat you well, and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.' "

These verses don't speak of Salvation. Only that Abraham would have many descendants.