Calvinism & Lordship Salvation

[Lou Martuneac]

I have had no personal interest of affinity for John MacArthur. I have from time to time read a bit or two of his books, and seen a video of his teaching dealing with the nature of truth. What I have seen was very good. The book I have read most of Dr. MacArthur is Charismatic Chaos which helped me greatly break away from the charismatic movement.

But now that there has been so much attack by you upon him in regards to the Gospel I am going to buy the book you so much seek to defame...for methinks the true Gospel is preached therein...

That is fine. His Charismatic Chaos is excellent.

Be reminded that I am addressing the teaching of JM's Lordship Salvation.

You should read his books. Just remember that as you read the LS interpretation of the Gospel you are reading what he believes are the requiremnents FOR salvation, including the lost man's willingness to "forsake everything" to become a Christian.

LM

 

[webdog]

I checked Lou's records. Since 7/27/07 till now 7/30/08 my time, he has posted nine -- count em' 9 times where he has "Lordship" explicitly stated in his thread titles. Five, count em' 5 times in which he waxes inelegantly on the subject without using the word in the thread title.So on 14 occasions he thinks it was necessary to besmirch John MacArthur.For him to deny that and say it has nothing to do with personalities is a falsehood.He is going about as a man possessed.He has an inordinate obsession about trying to soil John MacArthur's reputation at all costs.He has no shame.There are other more pressing concerns in the Kingdom of God which he could address. But no. Lou is compulsive.He wants to do as much damage as possible while the Christian world watches his vain striving.

He needs a more edifying hobby. He should get a more constructive pastime.There are some deadly doctrines out there Lou.But John MacArthur is not the kind of guy you should want to take down.Statistically, since he is about 17 years older than you -- he may precede you in death. On Judgment Day he will be told "Well done, my good and faithful servant."All your little darts will be seen as so much useless dust.

Are you jealous of his ministry, or what? You sound like a man half-crazed.I've heard of hobby-horses before, but this takes the proverbial cake.Are you capable of participating in threads in which John MacArthur's name is not brought up in a negative light by yourself? Can you wean yourself off the subject? Don't worry about withdrawl symptoms. If you get off this "drug," it will be well-worth it.

Kinda like your track record of only starting calvinist threads, eh? Remember your little "________ is a very calvinistic month" thread kick from a year or two ago?

 

[webdog]

so how is one saved?

Election.

So much for faith...

 

[David Lamb]

Kinda like your track record of only starting calvinist threads, eh? Remember your little "________ is a very calvinistic month" thread kick from a year or two ago?

I think I remember that thread, too. Wasn't that the one where well-known Christians of the past with calvinistic beliefs, having birthdays in the month concerned, were listed? I certainly don't remember them as being in any way contentious, nor do I remember it lambasting anyone for their beliefs. I may be wrong, of course, but if I'm not, it seems more than a little unfair to liken that thread to the present pethora of recent threads attacking John MacArthur.

 

[David Lamb]

So much for faith...

Why? Calvinists do not deny the necessity of faith. But to be fair, I should perhaps alter that to, "I have never yet come across a calvinist who denies the necessity of faith."

 

[RustySword]

Oh, but for the Calvinist this means the lost man has already been regenerated prior to and apart from faith because according to the Calvinist the lost cannot hear or respond to the Gospel. So, why does he need to come to Christ as, "his only hope for salvation," when he has been born again already?

LM

Another example of painting with too broad a brush. Not all Calvinists believe that regeneration preceeds faith. In fact, John Calvin himself did not believe it. If you read his Institutes you may be surprised at how he defined regeneration, and what he said about repentance.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That is fine. His Charismatic Chaos is excellent.

Be reminded that I am addressing the teaching of JM's Lordship Salvation.

You should read his books. Just remember that as you read the LS interpretation of the Gospel you are reading what he believes are the requiremnents FOR salvation, including the lost man's willingness to "forsake everything" to become a Christian.

LM

Personally, I have no problem examining a man's teaching, including yours. Jesus taught us that unless we do forsake everything, which is not MaCarthurite languge, but that of the Son of God, we cannot be his disciple. Jesus also taught us that unless we deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him, we cannot be His disciple. I know you know those Scriptures. And I am sure you have some way of relagating them to post-conversion folks as a part of "discipleship"

Because of your insistance in bringing up the controversy I went and looked at the teaching of Jesus on the subject. This "forsaking all" are not the words of John MacArthur. It is the doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ. When I look at HIS teaching in its context, I see Him teaching this to those who were hearing Him, both believers and unbelievers.

It is also the doctrine taught in the context of the parable of the great supper and the inviting those in the hyways and byways.

It seems abundantly clear to me Lou that Jesus teaches us to count the cost.

 

[webdog]

Why? Calvinists do not deny the necessity of faith. But to be fair, I should perhaps alter that to, "I have never yet come across a calvinist who denies the necessity of faith."

If one is saved due to election...one is not saved due to faith. I understand calvinists believe faith to be "necessary"...but I also believe that is lip service, as the belief one passes from death to life PRIOR to faith in Christ has the individual spiritually alvive PRIOR to faith in Christ. Faith at that point becomes moot, as the person is already alive.

 

[webdog]

Another example of painting with too broad a brush. Not all Calvinists believe that regeneration preceeds faith. In fact, John Calvin himself did not believe it. If you read his Institutes you may be surprised at how he defined regeneration, and what he said about repentance.

Yeah, they are the confused ones

For TULIP to work, pre faith regeneration is a necessity.

 

[Amy.G]

Yeah, they are the confused ones

For TULIP to work, pre faith regeneration is a necessity.

This reminds me of a question that has been rolling around in my head. If faith is a "gift" and is something we do not have until it is given, how can you explain the faith that a Muslim has? Their faith is so strong that they are willing to literally die for Allah, believing they will go to heaven and recieve their 21 or so virgins? That is faith with a capital F, and I know it wasn't given to them by God.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

This reminds me of a question that has been rolling around in my head. If faith is a "gift" and is something we do not have until it is given, how can you explain the faith that a Muslim has? Their faith is so strong that they are willing to literally die for Allah, believing they will go to heaven and recieve their 21 or so virgins? That is faith with a capital F, and I know it wasn't given to them by God.

The Muslims have the faith of Christ?

 

[Amy.G]

The Muslims have the faith of Christ?

What is the faith of Christ? I know about faith in Christ but does Christ need faith in Himself?


Muslims have faith. But it is the object of their faith that makes it a dead faith. Christ is the object of our faith, which is why our faith is not in vain and is alive, not dead.

 

[webdog]

The Muslims have the faith of Christ?

What does Christ have faith in?

edited...I see Amy asked the same question.

For one to give something to someone, one needs that something to give. We have life because God has life and gave us life. We have a spirit because God does. This same prinicpal must apply with faith. If God gives us faith, He has faith to give. God does not need faith, since it is that which is hoped for and not seen. This does not apply to God in any way. Faith originates from within God's finite creation.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

What is the faith of Christ? I know about faith in Christ but does Christ need faith in Himself?


Muslims have faith. But it is the object of their faith that makes it a dead faith. Christ is the object of our faith, which is why our faith is not in vain and is alive, not dead.

No need to get hung up on semantics. Just me accustomed to the KJV.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:6

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9

Muslims do not have faith in Jesus Christ. They do not have THAT faith.

 

[webdog]

Muslims do not have faith in Jesus Christ. They do not have THAT faith.

Same faith...different object.

 

[Amy.G]

No need to get hung up on semantics. Just me accustomed to the KJV.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:6

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9

Muslims do not have faith in Jesus Christ. They do not have THAT faith.

Ok, don't get your beard in knot! :laugh: (I will never let you live down the beard thing)

Right, Muslims do not have faith in Christ, but they have faith. It is the object of our faith that matters. We were created with faith. Every one of us, including Muslims. Who you put that faith in, will determine where you spend eternity.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Ok, don't get your beard in knot! :laugh: (I will never let you live down the beard thing)

Right, Muslims do not have faith in Christ, but they have faith. It is the object of our faith that matters. We were created with faith. Every one of us, including Muslims. Who you put that faith in, will determine where you spend eternity.

We are agreed that Muslims do not have faith in Christ Jesus. What is the purpose of your second point? Has someone taught that Christians are justified by an alien faith?

Or have we taught that no man will believe in Jesus unless God makes that person come alive from being dead in their trespasses and sins?

 

[Amy.G]

What is the purpose of your second point? Has someone taught that Christians are justified by an alien faith?

My point is that God does not wave the magic faith wand and poof, you have saving faith. You are born with faith to believe. Everyone is. You say that faith is a gift that God bestows upon you right before you believe. I'm saying that faith was there all the time. You just have to excercise it and put it in the right object, which is Christ. Faith in any other is in vain.

What is alien faith? Faith in aliens? :laugh: Some have faith in that too.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

My point is that God does not wave the magic faith wand and poof, you have saving faith. You are born with faith to believe. Everyone is. You say that faith is a gift that God bestows upon you right before you believe. I'm saying that faith was there all the time. You just have to excercise it and put it in the right object, which is Christ. Faith in any other is in vain.

What is alien faith? Faith in aliens? :laugh: Some have faith in that too.

Seems like the subject has turned to the nature of faith. Would you like to start a thread on this?

 

[Amy.G]

Seems like the subject has turned to the nature of faith. Would you like to start a thread on this?

No, I'm sorry. I have hijacked this thread.

My apologies. :saint: