Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Try answering the question with yes or no, are you ashamed?
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Calvinism Made Me Doubt My Salvation
- Thread starter Regulus
- Start date
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes He knows that you believe His atoning death saved no one
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Not in the last BF. I have answered your question you just do not seem to have the ability to comprehend the words.
"Well since He knows that then I do not have to tell Him. {This answers your question BF, you just do not like the answer.}
But I do thank the risen Christ for making salvation possible by the grace of God for those that will freely trust in Him."
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The bible says that BF you are just reading your false religion into the text and denying what the bible says in clear text.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Okay so your Faith in Christ isnt that He actually saved, but made it possible. Then something or someone else must of actually made it a reality. Who or what was that ? Doesn't it or whomever deserves thanks as well, after all Jesus Christ and the Grace of God only made it possible.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The bible says Jesus Christ death saved no one ? Where ? I have been reading and studying the bible for 50 years now and never have I seen that scripture.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The answer in all cases is yes. The difference is that the Calvinist believes that it is a certainty that the elect will in time come to faith. The non Calvinist believes that some will come in time to believe but that it is up to the individual as to whether they do so. Within this there is a wide range of understanding as to how decisive the work of the Holy Spirit is in bringing this about, whether this is just conviction or persuasion or whether it is supernaturally enlightening or creative of new life and desire for Christ prior to faith.
On the edges, there are Calvinists who believe that at the atonement, the elect were actually saved and that coming to faith amounts to realizing that you are elect. And there are those on the other end who believe that natural man has all the tools needed when provided the information contained in the gospel and thus can come to Christ or not, completely by his own volition.
Personally, I think that in the first paragraph all those positions have ample scriptures that seem to back them. I see error in the second paragraph, except that I do believe that natural man should be able to comprehend and respond to the gospel even though he tends not to do so.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Where does the Spirit testify in the word that Jesus atoning death saved no one, but merely made it possible. Who does the Spirit say in the word actually saved someone ?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Do you not know what the bible says or do you just ignore what it says if it disagrees with your religion?
By the grace of God we are saved;
John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
We are saved because we have fulfilled the condition that God has placed upon salvation, namely faith in His Son, Jesus the Christ.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
The link between faith and salvation is so pervasive in scripture that one can properly say, as many high Calvinists do, that Christ's death made salvation possible for those who believe. And that faith is the "condition" required by men on their part in order to be saved.
When Calvinists argue that the atonement of Christ accomplishes absolutely the salvation of all the elect they mean that all those who Christ died for will certainly come to faith in Christ. You should not be offended at this because when God ordains that something will be it just as certainly will be - even though it is a "condition". It is not necessary for you to back yourself into a corner where you can now be asked the obvious question, which is the reverse of what you are asserting: "If the death of Christ saved the elect and nothing more can be said then what about the case of someone who refuses to believe?" All that normal Calvinism asserts is that salvation is all of God, all of grace, and that God will save all the elect. That does not mean that you don't have scriptures that call for faith as a condition, or for that matter good works, love, forgiveness of enemies and many other things - all of which God brings about by grace for his elect.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Now, whether this "fits" logically is another matter. Read for example Wesley's sermon number 128 on "Free Grace" and he makes a good argument against predestination of any kind - unless it's based on foreknowledge of a true free will choice. I would say take it or leave it as to your own preference theologically as I don't think it matters one bit as to a person's relationship to Christ. If one is not comfortable with the way Calvinist theologians explain the doctrines of grace then reject them. But I would stay away from the idea that men are not really impaired in their ability to respond to the gospel and I would stay away from a Calvinism that diminishes the necessity of a true and actual invitation for all to come to Christ.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I know that your faith is not in the fact that Jesus saved those He died for, you deny it and say that He only made it possible that's what your faith is!
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You actually believe that Christ in His death, His redemptive blood did not save anyone? How is that faith in Christ? The redeemed testify that His Death did it Rev 5:9
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just as the bible tells us BF.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That is anti scripture, Jesus is the actual Savior of sinners, that is what scriptures teach. Obviously your faith is not in that Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
My faith is in the risen Christ BF.
You seem to forget what Paul said and which I have pointed out to you more than once.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
Since you are trusting in Christ on the cross then your faith is futile, in other words of no use. Still in your sins, still lost.
So is your faith futile or real BF? Which Christ do you trust in?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Your faith says his death did not save anyone