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Calvinism makes God Insincere of His Word

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 7, 2005.

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  1. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    I really meant no offense, and I apologize for it. I should probably do something else for a while.
     
    #81 whatever, Apr 10, 2005
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And the reason I have not answered you is that you have already been answered, but you ignored the answer.
    You say, "I still want to know why you listed Pelagius as your Church Father?"

    I didn't. I didn't say anything about "my church." Pelagius was a Church Father.

    Then you said, "You are the first person whom I have ever known that calls Pelagius a Christian in his theology."

    I didn't say Pelagius was a Christian in his theology. Why do you continue to make these things up? As for you not knowing something, that is your problem, not mine. If you would look at UBS 4, page 30* you will notice a section explaining the cites titled "The Evidence from Church Fathers." Then if you will turn to page 36* under the section "List of Latin Church Fathers" (the section title is on page 35*) you will notice that the last entry on page *36 is "Pelagius."

    If you have a problem with that I suggest you take it up with the editors Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo Martini, Bruce Metzger, Allen Wikgren, Barbara Aland, and Johannes Karavidopoulos, and you might also direct your foolish questions to the "Institute for New Testament Textual Research," Munster, Westphalia, Germany, who cooperated in the work, or to the "United Bible Societies," 1865 Broadway, New York, NY 10023 - Tel: 212-408-1200, who published the book.
     
    #82 TCassidy, Apr 10, 2005
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You are accusing "main christiandom [sic]" of rejecting the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ? Why would you do that?
    Well, if you did not tell the truth, that is your fault, not mine.
    Even after being corrected you continue to tell the same untruth. I am not a follower of Calvin. I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I dare say that it is you and not us who knows not of what he speaks.
    Calvinists don't, in my experience, whine. But they do demand that you tell the truth. When you don't tell the truth about what they believe they call you to account for it. When you can't support your charges you are the ones who begin to whine, call names, question their salvation, spirituality and bible knowledge. It is you who gets personal with insults and slander.
    So, because you disagree with us, and can't honestly discuss the issue, you accuse of worshipping a false god? (In violation of the forum rules.) Actually it is your kind who refuses to listen. You make some silly statement about "what Calvinists believe" and when the Calvinists tell you that is not what they believe you refuse to listen and continue to tell the same untruth.
    Well, I dare say that the Calvinists know what they believe better than you know what they believe, so why do you get so angry and abusive when they point out that you have not correctly stated their beliefs?
     
    #83 TCassidy, Apr 10, 2005
  4. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Guys, why don't we please stay with the OP, rather than have public "slagging matches"?
     
    #84 icthus, Apr 10, 2005
  5. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    The OP was answered in the first reply. The rest has just been gravy.
     
    #85 whatever, Apr 10, 2005
  6. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    So tell me in a nutshell, what do Calvinists believe? I think you don't know. Prove me wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]I think a NUTSHELL is the correct term here. They believe the teachings of John Calvin, most of christiandom (born again christians) do NOT! Do I need to prove that?
     
    #86 Timtoolman, Apr 10, 2005
  7. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    You are accusing "main christiandom [sic]" of rejecting the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ? Why would you do that?
    Well, if you did not tell the truth, that is your fault, not mine.
    Even after being corrected you continue to tell the same untruth. I am not a follower of Calvin. I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I dare say that it is you and not us who knows not of what he speaks.
    Calvinists don't, in my experience, whine. But they do demand that you tell the truth. When you don't tell the truth about what they believe they call you to account for it. When you can't support your charges you are the ones who begin to whine, call names, question their salvation, spirituality and bible knowledge. It is you who gets personal with insults and slander.
    So, because you disagree with us, and can't honestly discuss the issue, you accuse of worshipping a false god? (In violation of the forum rules.) Actually it is your kind who refuses to listen. You make some silly statement about "what Calvinists believe" and when the Calvinists tell you that is not what they believe you refuse to listen and continue to tell the same untruth.
    Well, I dare say that the Calvinists know what they believe better than you know what they believe, so why do you get so angry and abusive when they point out that you have not correctly stated their beliefs?     </font>[/QUOTE]Well the calvinist have it all they are so honest and pure. I am not angery, amused would be more honest. I don't hate calvinist. My preacher is one. Where are you reading all this hostility? If its from me where. You were the one who went on the attack mode with you line by line retort. I didn't really think you mad just silly.
     
    #87 Timtoolman, Apr 10, 2005
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What Calvinist on this forum has made a claim that they are "so honest and pure?" Please post the quote.
    Nobody has claimed you did. The issue was first, your claim that "main christiandom [sic]" rejects the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ." And, second, your accusation that we are worshipping a false god. And third, your assertion that Calvinists believe what they really don't believe and that you know better than they what they believe. Can you stick to what you actually said instead of bring a lot of falsehoods into the discussion?

    Do you accuse your preacher of either rejecting the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ or of worshipping Calvin? Do you accuse him of idolatry too, claiming he worships a false god? Do you accuse him of not knowing what he is talking about and do you tell him you know what he believes better than he does?
    What hostility is that? Who mentioned hostility?
    Where has anyone accused you of being hostile?
    No, I answered, one by one, your false accusations. If you consider answering a post to be an "attack" does that mean that every time you answer someone else's post you are attacking them?
    I don't know why you would think me to be mad in either the insane or the angry sense. All I did was answer your post pointing out the errors of logic and attestation.
     
    #88 TCassidy, Apr 10, 2005
  9. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    I think a NUTSHELL is the correct term here. They believe the teachings of John Calvin, most of christiandom (born again christians) do NOT! Do I need to prove that? </font>[/QUOTE]So I was correct.

    Do you really think that a majority opinion proves anything?
     
    #89 whatever, Apr 10, 2005
  10. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    I think a NUTSHELL is the correct term here. They believe the teachings of John Calvin, most of christiandom (born again christians) do NOT! Do I need to prove that? </font>[/QUOTE]So I was correct.

    Do you really think that a majority opinion proves anything?     </font>[/QUOTE]
     
    #90 Timtoolman, Apr 10, 2005
  11. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    I think a NUTSHELL is the correct term here. They believe the teachings of John Calvin, most of christiandom (born again christians) do NOT! Do I need to prove that? </font>[/QUOTE]So I was correct.

    Do you really think that a majority opinion proves anything?     </font>[/QUOTE]Not always, but I do believe that most Bible believing, born again christians do not follow or even know what calvinism is.
    I see that we are getting yelled at for being off topic. If you and Tcassidy want to start another thread I would be glad to discuss with you why so many christians come to the same conclusion when the hear the teachings of J calvin. Like , doesnt that make God the author of sin, doesn't that limit God's love and doesn't J calvins teachings make the gospel at best insincere or just untrue, etc.
     
    #91 Timtoolman, Apr 10, 2005
  12. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Icthus,

    Do they get this heated over calvinism on your side of the pond?

    In Christ,

    Wayne
     
    #92 El_Guero, Apr 10, 2005
  13. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    [/b]Nobody has claimed you did. The issue was first, your claim that "main christiandom [sic]" rejects the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ."

    TIM: Okay lets be honest...you want that right. Then you DON'T listen as I stated earlier or you are the lair. Go back, read my post again...it says most do not follow the teachings of J Calvin.
    Why the falsehood?


    And, second, your accusation that we are worshipping a false god.

    TIM: there are not many who do not deal with other gods. Some its money, some its prestige or material goods, being righ etc. Its what we do with them that counts.


    And third, your assertion that Calvinists believe what they really don't believe and that you know better than they what they believe.

    TIM: I love this line by line. I believe what I was refering to was that words mean something and when you all talk and keep getting the same questions thrown back at ya, maybe, just maybe you all ought to sit back and re-think your terminology.
    What happens is you paint yourself into a corner then you all have different answers which contradict more scripture and misrepresent God's character.


    Can you stick to what you actually said instead of bring a lot of falsehoods into the discussion?

    TIM: What falsehoods? Do not peopel continuely throw the same questions back to you all when you spount the teachings of John Calvin. Sure they do I have proved that over and over again in teaching SS.


    Do you accuse your preacher of either rejecting the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ or of worshipping Calvin? Do you accuse him of idolatry too, claiming he worships a false god? Do you accuse him of not knowing what he is talking about and do you tell him you know what he believes better than he does?
    TIM: Okay, fair enough but where was the logic answers pointing my errors?
    Lets move this post somewhere else if we are not supose to discuss this here although it doesn't seem that much off topic. I would be glad to discuss with you why so many people reach the same conclusions when the teachings of John Calvin are presentd and reject them. Why what you say means and ends with final conclusions that contradict the gospel or do not protray the true character of God in the Bible.

    God bless,
     
    #93 Timtoolman, Apr 11, 2005
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You said
    Now, Tim, do you see what your wrote? You were saying one of two things. Either Christendom rejects the teachings of my leader, who is the Lord Jesus Christ, or that Christendom rejects the teachings of my leader, and you lied about who my leader is, saying it is John Calvin. Either way your statement was an untruth.
    But that is not what you said. You said:
    You accused us, not a generic "many" but us specifically of worshipping the false god of the Gnostics, knowledge.
    But Tim, that is not what you said. You said that we were:
    That is not true. We were correcting your errors when you stated we believed something we don't believe.
    No, Tim, we have never painted ourselves into a corner nor have we given different answers that are contradictory either of our former answers or of the scripture. We keep asking you to provide the scripture that proves we are wrong but you don't give us any. You just keep saying things like "Your wrong" (and, yes, that is how you usually spell you're), or that we contradict scripture but you never give us the scripture we contradict.
    The same falsehoods I have already pointed out above. And the reason we keep asking you the same questions is that you keep refusing to answer them! And you may think you disproved something in your Sunday school class but what you probably disproved was your own straw man mischaracterization of what you think Calvinists might believe.
    But you don't get nasty and insulting nor do you lie about him? If you can give your pastor that respect why can't you give the rest of us that respect?
    I am not sure what you mean, but see above for my pointing out the errors you have made.
    Feel free to move it anywhere you want to.
    I don't know that is true, but if it is it is probably because what is presented to them is a mischaracterization of what we believe biblical soteriology is rather than what we actually believe.
    What we believe does not contradict the gospel, it is the gospel. And it portrays the true Character of God, Sovereign in all things.
     
    #94 TCassidy, Apr 11, 2005
  15. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Post removed for personal attacks and inappropriate comments.

    Tim, if you wish to continue, then discuss issues, not people. Do not accuse Calvinists of being followers of anyone other than Christ. This forum is for the discussion of theology, not men. If you wish to debate about Calvinism, then do so on the basis of theology and Scripture.

    This is an official warning. Further infractions will make you liable for a 10 day suspension, in accordance with BaptistBoard rules.

    [ April 11, 2005, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
    #95 Timtoolman, Apr 11, 2005
  16. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Suspending myself. If cannot enter honest debate then why bother?!
    :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
    #96 Timtoolman, Apr 11, 2005
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