Calvinism makes God the author of sin!

But you would be wrong because all I have done is believe Scripture even if it does not easily make sense to me.

Acts 2:23 his Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

YOu see, if you read the SCripture and believe it, it says exactly that.

Acts 4:27-28 27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Quite clearly, your philosophies contradict the revelation of Scripture.

 

Hi Matt

Please explain what you mean. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm agreeing with your previous post - I think. If God truly ordains sin, then we have no control over it and hence no responsibility for its consequences; the responsibility is God's alone. Thus God is the author of sin - which is of course heresy. Still, that's the logical conclusion of determinism

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

The passage I refer to in Acts 2 says nothing about Judas period. REad it ... HOwevewr, Judas is clearly addressed in another passage that contradicts you.

[/qb]Every Calvinist believes that Judas betrayed Jesus of his own free will.

Who cares what you think? God gave us revelation to direct our mind and thinking.

I will gladly entertain you on the facts. YOu can start with the verse I have already referenced. The facts clealy show that God did ordain the murder of his son, and that those who did it acted freely and are resopnsible for it. That answers this whole question of responsibility and ordination.

Like so many, you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Completely false statement. It is not heretical. It is exactly what Scripture teaches. You simply don't understand what you are talking about.

It is the Enlgish equivalent of hte word God used ... and it means to arrange beforehand, and if you don't like it, take it up with God.

That is contradictory. Is "sin" not a thing? If "sin" is a thing and God is not in control of it, then he is not in control of everything, and Scripture is shown to be false.

At least you got somethign right in this post.

And you follow it up with something completely wrong.

Your method of attack is commoon and has failed everytime it has been tried. Try a new tactic. It won't work any better, but at least it will be new.

 

Calvinism belivees that man has free will. It is free to do whatever he wants to do. His sin nature has bound it so that every desires is sinful. He sins because he wants to, not because he has to.

Because of what free will actually means. You have injected your own definition, rather than the biblical one.

Well, the ultimate goal is not a system per se, but fidelity to the biblical text. In that regard, we are willing to let apparent contradictions stand since we admit that God is infinite and we can't understand it all. At the same time, we refuse to explain away or ignore Scripture.

It is you who don't understand. There is an ultimate cause and a mediate cause. Philosophers actually break "cause" into a bunch of different categories. But for the sake of this discussion, when the Bible says that God works all things after his own will, we believe that. You do not, apparently. They are myriads of contradictions in your system that bring laughter when you think about it. The difference between our contradiction and yours is that ours arise from fidelity to the text. Yours arise from your own philosophical problems, and indeed, ignoring of the text.

This post is a prime example of what I am talking about. I posted two out of many Scripture that directly and explicitly refute your position. You don't even address them. You ignore them.

 

God is the creator of all in the sense that he created good and evil. Without evil there is no such thing as good.

 

ACtually, GB it is the other way around. Without good, there is no such thing as evil. God existd in eternity past before the foundation of the world. There was no evil then. Evil is not a necessary corrolary of good. Good can exist without it.

 

I don't believe you understand!

Sin is not a pre-belief post belief issue. Sin is a human issue! Those who are not believers are not necessarily "slave to sin" any more than those who are believers are "slave to righteousness".

The Power that sin had over man, which was death for sin, has been broken by Jesus' atonement for sin! Man does not have to die for sins but can have everlasting life through faith because the penalty for sin has been paid ONCE, for ALL! That which has been done Once for all need not be done over and over and over!

It is man's faith in the Atoner that makes man acceptable for salvation which is everlasting life! Sin has been defeated, Death has been defeated. Faith in God can never be defeated!

 

PastorSBC

Satan is the prince of this world. God doesn't cause all the sin that goes on here. I realize Calvinist believe that God controls the sin that he is ultimatly responsible for all the murder rape and sheer misery. You want to claim my God is causing all this to happen. You're just plain wrong. If God were in control of every single thing, don't you think things at the very least,it would be perfect. I do. So something is really wrong when a pastor teaches that God is responsible for sin in the world. Go ahead and tell the world what a terrible God we have one who rapes us for our love and devotion. One who promotes murder to satisfy His pleasure.

Will God control this world You bet when He set's up His throne every knee shall bow. How in the world can you be so blind as to not see that this world is not in control of God. God is only allowing sin to take place. God is only allowing certain things to happen. Thats just plain nonsense. There is a war going on between two forces God and Satan are wrestling for the throne of this world. If God were in control there would be no more battle. If God were in control there would be no conflict. God can and will take control when He is ready, but He is not in control at this moment and you know it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi Larry;

This is really a stretch controlling a single event is hardly controlling the whole world. God chooses a time of when He is sure of the reactions of men and they happend just as planed. I'd call this planning not manipulation.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Mike,

Go back and read what the thread is. It is about God ordaining sin. Those passages I gave are not about God controlling the whole world. They are a God inspired, inerrant refutation of the charge that God does not ordain sin and that if God did ordain sin he would responsible for it.

The Scripture clearly declares that the premise of this thread is wrong.

 

ILUVLIGHT

I would have to say I think you should expand your view just a bit. God has told us that He created the heavens and the earth. It would be a stretch to say that God's creation excluded any elements that are present in that creation today. Sin is present in the creation. So God probably did create sin, or at least the capacity in man to sin. I don't believe that God made man a sinner, I believe that was man's doing. But, the garden, the fruit tree, the beguiling serpent, the opportunity, and man in whom God placed the capability of choice and individual independent action all came together at the right time, and place, and man deliberately chose to disobey God! Thus sin entered the world that God created. And God knew it would happen because he established from before the foundation of the world, "The Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world".

So to say that God would not, or could not is not thinking things through.

What we do NOT know for sure is when the Spirit realm in which our God is the supreme and Only God, came into existance relative to HIS creation of this world. We have no way of knowing if Evil and Sin existed before the Creation, and imposed itself upon God's newly created mankind. The knowledge we have is comprised only of what's been given to us.

Was the test in the Garden fair? After all, here is newly created man, who having no prior knowledge or teaching, received a command from God, some time before the test, and with nothing to compare that command to, was set to upon by a beguiling serpent. Man had never been disciplined to know what the consequences of disobedience might be, he had not witnessed death because everything was new. So death had no meaning to him. A command with stated consequences with nothing to give perspective. Would you have done any differently than Adam? I don't think so! I would probably have done just what Adam in his circumstances did.

All we do know is that in the creation sin exists, and man seems to like it! We know from the scriptures given to us that Jesus, is God the Son, and that He, in his role of The Lamb of God" offered himself up in sacrifice to remove the penalty of sin from mankind so that those whosoevers that believe in him can have everlasting life.

 

Hi Wes;

I did not say that God could not. I just said He is not in control of who sins and who doesn't sin God is not in control of Sin, Satan is, and the whole world is sin ful that means that Satan is in control of the world. If God were in control as He will be someday then Sin will cease to exist. Men who walk around claiming God is in control are making God responsible for all the violence that has ever happened and this isn't true.

There was no test in the garden. God knew how man would react when he was told not to do something. It's not that God wanted man to sin, but that He wanted man to have a choice in order that the love of man would be given to Him freely and willingly if at all. Without those two elements there is no Love. If God wanted to manipulate men as Calvinist teach then Adam would have been forced not to touch that fruit. And Adam wouldn't have had a choice and there would be no true Love for God to have from man.

Wes Adam wasn't deceived, Eve was. Adam sinned by free choice so that He would remain with Eve. If sin had a measure Adams sin was the greater of the two.

Yes It was all planned but sin was only allowed for the sake of choice. For the sake of true Love. With out choice there can be no Love
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi Larry this is what you said and is what inspire my defense of my God;

You are plain wrong God did not approve of sin in any way. Given that the word Ordained means approved. The opposite is the truth.

You have failed to prove this nonsense as God ordaining sin. The event of Christ being sacrificed is not ordained or approved of but was allowed for the purpose of ridding man of his sins. These two verse are not about God approving of the actions of the men who crusified my Lord. The actions were allowed because it please the Father that His son Love men so much that He went through all this when he very clearly didn't have to. He laid His life down for all men.Even the ones who crusified Him.
May Christ Shine His Light On us All;
Mike

 

You didn't defend God. God said something you don't accept.

Have you read Isaiah 53? The Bible says that God took pleasure in the death of his Son. That sounds a lot like approval of what was done. The two text I gave say "predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" meaning that he predetermined the murder of his Son, and "Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" meanign that he predestined his death by murder to occur. That is quite clearly an explicit refutation of your position.

At this point, you should be hastily backing away from your position and saying that just because he ordained one or two sins doesn't mean that he ordains all sins. That would be a much harder position for me to defend in some sense. But you insist on denying the plain teaching of Scripture for some reason.

But read the text. It says "predetermined plan" and "predestined." That means simply what it says. It does not say "allow." Nowhere do you find "allow" in the text.

He didn't have to? YOu are saying that Christ could have disobeyed the Father? How in teh world can God sin? That makes no sense at all. If Christ did not die, then God would have been a liar, God the Son would have been a sinner by virtue of his disobedience, and he would have violated the covenant he made in eternity past to die for sin. That is impossible and it is outside of orthodox theology.

He did this through his word, but you want to deny parts of it. He won't shine his light on you until you accept his word.

 

We must not be reading the same scriptures then, or you are not understanding what you read!

Did God create the earth?
Did God create man?
Did God not create every living, breathing thing?
Did God not place man in the garden where there was a special tree in the midst thereof?
Did God not create the serpent?
Is the scene in which the first sin committed by man not described in Scripture?
Are the words not contained in Scripture?
Is God's command to man not recorded in scripture?

Scripture is clear that man disobeyed God!...and has been doing so ever since! The scriptures clearly reveal that to be true! The setting in which the sin occured is in Scripture.
The characters are all recorded in Scripture.

Why can't you see it? There is no speculation here! IT is recorded truth!

 

Hi Larry
Wave bye to that perfect theology you said you had. The pleasure that God received was from Christ not from the sin of the men you claim. Your own docrine teaches that man in his natural state can do nothing to please God. The men who were comiting this sin were not saved Larry. So here you are with your perfect wavering doctrine stating your own contradictions. Do you or do you not believe that natural man can do nothing to please God?
You surprize me all the time Larry. Do you see the waver in your own ideas or not?
God has something for you Larry all you have to do is trust Him for it.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

He took pleasure in the bruising of his son which was the murder of his Son, which was sin. No way around that.

They did nothing that was redemptively pleasing to God. That is the point. It is a shame that you keep talking in here. You obviously don't know much about the subject. All this time you are talking you could be learning.

If you took time to learn what you hate so much you wouldn't be surprised. The problem is you won't learn.