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Calvinism makes God the author of sin!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by aa0310, Feb 9, 2005.

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  1. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    :cool:
     
    #61 johnp., Feb 13, 2005
  2. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    Nice to see an open mind for once! :cool:
    "to predestine or destine as part of a divine plan, by the force of circumstances, or as necessary in the nature of things"
    "ordain." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (13 Feb. 2005)

    Someone said somewhere that when a Calvinist is pushed on 'ordain' they end up in the position of making the word mean 'permission'.
    But this position is entrenched in Calvinism that God ordains, that is: He steps aside while someone else does something naughty and then comdemns them. That to me does not sound like the God I have come to know but people do not like the titles given to those that believe ordain means ordain! Hyper! Extremist! Fundamentalist! Unorthodox! Heretic!
    Not that He created us to be able to do what we know instinctively to be right but creates us all incabable of doing right. This, my conception, was a creating of fresh evil. It was because at the moment of my conception I was not connected to the source of life which is the greatest of evils and for which I get the blame! I'm not saying that is wrong, that I was conceived as such and receive the punishment of such. God is Sovereign. What I am saying is that is the way it is and we have to deal with that.
    Paul does. "Why does God still blame us." Is a valid question. His answer is, "Who are you to talk back to God."
    Our answer is to mold 'ordain' into permission otherwise we think God will be tainted. This is wrong because we are putting limits on God's Sovereignty.

    But the biggest wonder of all to me is why does an Arminian want to prove that God is Sovereign? :cool: Because that is what you are doing. If all the Calvinists suddenly agree with you about ordaining what are you going to do, become one of us? :cool:

    johnp.     </font>[/QUOTE]First things first. I am NOT an Arminian! I believe that my Faith is built upon the infallable, inerrant Word of Almighty God. I do not claim to have all of the answers, in fact a very small percentage of them! However, I do hold that certain "theologies" do great harm to the plain teachings of Scripture, whereby man, and not God, has placed certain "linits" on the finished work of the Saviour, our Blessed Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ! I still strongly believe, that Calvinism in the main has a mental "block" on certain aspects on the nature and Person of God, and suppose that their way at looking at things is what the Bible actually teaches! How wrong they are!

    God creadted all things perfect, including man. However, in His wisdom, God gave man something that we call "free will", that is, the ability to choose between alternatives. Therefore, when God commanded both Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree in the garden, as they would surely die if they did so. And the devil suggested to them that it would be ok to eat the "forbidden fruit", and that they would not die, they here had a clear choice between what God had told them, and what the devil,had told them. Sadly they chose the devil's word above that of the Creator God! Therefore man fell from grace, and favour with God, and that fellowship that man enjoyed in the garden with His Creator, was marred.

    Now, as I have said many times, are you and other Calvinists who hold to this notion of God foreordaining all things, saying that it was part of God's plan that Adam and Eve should disobey Him? Did he somehow, mysterously "cause" this rebellion, as some Calvinists actually teach? Either God "allowed" this to happen, and chose not to interfere in the choice that man made, or God was active in the events that took place in the garden of eden! If the latter, which would be the "hidden" teaching of Calvinism, by their understanding of God doing all things, then there is no escaping the fact that God is the author of sin! Argue all you like, there is no escaping the position that Calvinism does indeed teach this. Which, or course, is nothing short of blatant heresy!
     
    #62 aa0310, Feb 13, 2005
  3. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello aa0310.

    Your free will is Pelagian not scripture.
    What's a Pelagian trying to prove God is Sovereign for?
    Maybe true but that does not explain why you think ordain means ordain. It destroys your Pelagianism.
    What that ordain means allow?
    Sadly? Why sadly?
    Marred! Here's your 'marred'!
    Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 8 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

    That God willed in Adam's will to sin? I believe that.
    Did I not make myself clear? Supralapsarians have given themselves over to the Sovereignity of God. We wait for our brothers to catchup! :cool:
    That's your mother speaking. Your Romish ways are showing.

    johnp.
     
    #63 johnp., Feb 13, 2005
  4. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    Johnp

    Why do you say things that you don't know the meaning of? You accuse me of being, firstly an Arminian, and now a Pelagian! Do you just like to talk nonsense about other people? Do you happen to know what Pelagius actually taught? And you say that I am like him. May the Lord forgive you for your foolishness!

    You say that, "That God willed in Adam's will to sin? I believe that" Again, do you understand what you are saying here, or you are just saying such things for the sake of it? Let me enlighten you on the meaning of "will". Its is to "desire"! So, you are saying that God desired that Adam and Eve sin against Him, and then punish them for doing exactly what God desired? How warped can you thinking be? This is what Paul calls "doctrines of demons"! Just in case you did not know. God is a very Holy God, Who demands that His creation be as Holy as He is. This is plain in Scripture. Then, this same Holy God simply hates all form of sin, which would include the fall, which is known as "original sin". Did you know this? So, why would God will that we do something, and then punish us for merely carrying out His wishes? This is NOT the God I read of in my Bible. What Bible do you use that teaches this perverse view of God? I think that people like you are in serious need of prayer!
     
    #64 aa0310, Feb 13, 2005
  5. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    aa0310.

    I'll reply as soon as you are feeling a bit better. When I do I expect you not only to answer my questions as I answer yours, something that you seem to have negected up till now, but I expect you to use scripture and not your own philosophy to back up your many words.
    Scripture alone will prove who speaks God's word.

    Let's see if you answer me this time.
    What are you trying to prove God is Sovereign for?

    johnp.
     
    #65 johnp., Feb 13, 2005
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    The very term "GOD" means "sovereign" there is nothing to prove! So johnp why do you make the claim that someone is trying to prove that God is sovereign?

    There is none higher in rank, more powerful in might, more pure in holiness, more generous in Grace and Love, more Just in judgment. etc., etc., etc.
     
    #66 Wes Outwest, Feb 14, 2005
  7. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    Johnp

    I don't know how you can come up with such nonsense, that I am trying to "prove" that God is Sovereign? I have no intensions in doing so, as I have NEVER doubted the ultimate Sovereignty of Almighty God, as He alone has absolute power and authority! Another word would be "Omnipotent". Its just that you complete reasoning and argument seems to be futile, as you keep saying things, like calling me "Romish", when you don't even know me or what I stand for. I learnt many years ago, when someone cannot sustain a debate, they will reduce themselves to "name calling", and the making of false remarks! Its sad to see you falll into this yourself!

    What is very notable with the Calvinists that I have met, and the ones on the board, is that they are blinded to the fact, that though God is Sovereign, yet this does not reduce the fact that this Sovereign God, made man to be a responsible human being. Not some machine that He has programmed, as Calvinism would have us believe, with their unbiblical nonsense that God wills the will of man to comit sin!
     
    #67 aa0310, Feb 14, 2005
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    aa0310.

    posted 12 February, 2005 05:15 page 4
    You are on about 'ordaining' and you are trying to force the point that some dictionary defines it, "to decree or order; to destine or predestine; to order or command". Is this what you and the other Calvinists say that is meant by "ordains" sin? If so, then how can you say that this does not make God the author of sin?

    ...twisted Calvinistic nonsense...Calvinistic cunning!
    Accuse is a strange word to use for a start. For a second start don't give it out if you don't like it coming back.
    What is very notable with the Calvinists that I have met, and the ones on the board, is that they are blinded...
    ...twisted Calvinistic nonsense...
    ...Calvinistic cunning!     There's loads more. You are the pot calling the kettle black.
    Calvinism does indeed teach this. Which, or course, is nothing short of blatant heresy! Now I don't mind you saying things like that but you must expect that you get them back.
    Do you happen to know what Pelagius actually taught? And you say that I am like him. May the Lord forgive you for your foolishness!
    I think that people like you are in serious need of prayer!
    EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
    There is some bibical nonsense for you. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would disobey God's command to let the people go.
    What do you say?
    Where's the scripture? If you make such a statement then it should be accompanied by scripture.
    Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
    What do you say? I say man is responsible but incapable.

    Your use of the word 'marred' in connection with the condition of man's relationship has led me to conclude that you believe the fall did not actually affect us too badly. Am I right in this?
    Your belief that man can reach out for God and save himself is false. Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
    Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 8 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
    PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. This is also called original sin.

    Your post posted 13 February, 2005 15:41 is like a shotgun blast.
    I understand what I am saying and I will take the question as a question and answer no.
    Yes very good. And the scripture for this is, Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
    that though God is Sovereign, yet this does not reduce the fact that this Sovereign God, made man to be a responsible human being.
    I never said that man was not responsible but incapable. Incapable from conception. Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Ps 51:5.
    I never said that Adam and Eve were punished did I? If I did I made a mistake and retract it and if I did not you make a false remark. ...and the making of false remarks! Its sad to see you falll into this yourself!
    Stick around and you will find out.
    Does he by George well I am glad you told me. And the scripture is what? Just go and show me where Paul calls supralapsarianism the doctrines of demons. PS 135:8 He struck down the firstborn of Egypt, the firstborn of men and animals.
    PS 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
    DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
    Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
    I did have an inkling of this fact.
    He can demand what He likes can't He? Is this the ticket into Heaven, to be as Holy as God? Expand on this please it looks like a vital piece of the puzzle.
    Did I know what that the original sin is called the original sin or that God hates sin? I know that God hates sin. I know the original sin is called the original sin and I believe it causes us to be dead in our sins and transgressions from the moment of conception. Did you know that?
    Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
    The NIV.
    RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
    Did you pray?

    johnp.
     
    #68 johnp., Feb 14, 2005
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Let's keep in on topic and off of personal stuff, folks. Don't question another's intelligence.
     
    #69 Pastor Larry, Feb 14, 2005
  10. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    I am sorry, no attack was intended at anyone on a personal level. My attacks are on the "theology" of the person, and sometimes the distinction becomes too fine!
     
    #70 aa0310, Feb 14, 2005
  11. aa0310

    aa0310 New Member

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    Johnp, you wrote:

    "Your use of the word 'marred' in connection with the condition of man's relationship has led me to conclude that you believe the fall did not actually affect us too badly. Am I right in this?"

    I do not hold to the doctrine of "Total Depravity", as in the "T" in TULIP, as it does not reflect what I read in Scripture. The fall did NOT render man totally incapable of making a decision for himself, as the Calvinistic understanding would define it. This brings us to the free will within man, which I believe was not "destroyed" at the fall in Adam. I do believe that no one is able to come to the Lord "throught his own strength", and is in need of the grace of the Holy Spirit working in the heart of the person before they could make any decision to follow Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord. God, in His wisom and foreknowledge knows exactly who will respond to the gospel, and it is these hearts that are drawn when the gospel is preached. As Peter puts is: "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto (rather, "because of") obedience..." (1 Peter 1:2)!
     
    #71 aa0310, Feb 14, 2005
  12. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    aa0310.

    Even if we have free will as you define free will the choice we are given by God disallows free will because it comes with a threat. As I said in the other post, "Coercion negates free will."

    Then why does He not visit all men?
    He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. And; All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... Ps 147:19; Romans 2:12. Gal 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

    And where there is no law there can be no Christ!

    Cut and pasted. Cut and dried. :cool:

    johnp.
     
    #72 johnp., Feb 15, 2005
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