Depends on who you ask. You have Calvinist(5 points) and Arminians (5 points) and many in the middle. Usually it's over the technicality of definitions or misunderstanding of what is meant by a doctrine.
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Calvinism more evangelistic?
- Thread starter Luke2427
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Depends on who you ask. You have Calvinist(5 points) and Arminians (5 points) and many in the middle. Usually it's over the technicality of definitions or misunderstanding of what is meant by a doctrine.
Tom Butler
New Member
Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Regarding election, do Calvinists believe God chooses whom he will save? Yes
Do non-Calvinists believe God chooses whom he will save?
Yes.
Do non-Calvinists believe that God knows who will exercise saving faith? Yes,
Do Calvinists believe that God knows who will exercise saving faith? Yes
Do Calvinists know who those people are? No.
Do non-Cals know who those people are? No
If Calvinists should tell people they may not be elect, shouldn't non-Calvinists do the same thing? Yes.
Another strawman argument bites the dust.
Okay web, let's compare definitions.
I define the elect as those chosen by God for salvation.
How does that differ from your view?
I'm not sure what you mean by the scope of the elect, but I'm guessing. The scope is inclusive of every person God has chosen to salvation.
Of course, there are differing views as to the basis of election.
One is God's unilateral sovereign choice for reasons known only to him.
The other is based on foreseen faith--that God knows who will exercise saving faith and elects them on that basis.
In what way are any statements I made in the top box wrong? My point was to show that those who demand that Calvinists reveal to a lost person that they may not be elect, could just as easily be demanded of non-Calvinists.
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I really like your posts. You seem not to rant on and get to your point quickly and succinctly.
As I continue my walk with Christ and read, I get a message from the Bible. Yesterday, I stumbled across a phrase that got me to thinking about how easy it is to read just one phrase and use it to throw out entire chapters of another book just so I can believe what I want to believe.
I realized what I could do with it, but instead, I sat there and wondered how both sections of the Bible could be true. Well, it hit me. They can both be true, because one idea did not preclude the other unless I wanted it to.
1st Timothy, chap 2, the phrase that God wants the whole world to be saved in no way precludes the idea that God forsees those who will be saved and predesinates them. However, if I had chosen to; I could now argue with people that 1st Timothy means that the whole world CAN be saved - if I ignore Romans, chapter 8.
I guess I need to remember to read the whole text and not just pick phrases that I like.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Roms 8
Romans 8:
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
John 15:
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Romans 11:
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
1 John 2:
Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
Walking by the Spirit is walking in the words of Jesus not in the words of man
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Jude:1
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Romans 8:
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
John 15:
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Romans 11:
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
1 John 2:
Warnings Against Denying the Son
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[Some manuscripts and you know all things] 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
Walking by the Spirit is walking in the words of Jesus not in the words of man
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Jude:1
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
I beleive when the phrase "elect" is used in conjunction with humans (there are elect angels) it is referring to believing jews. I cannot find an instance where a gentile believer is specifically referred to as the elect. As you can see, according to my view there is no strawman with your phrase "If Calvinists should tell people they may not be elect, shouldn't non-Calvinists do the same thing? Yes."
Webdog, I beg to differ.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
That word, FYI, is elect.
Jews considered themselves ALONE to be "elect" or chosen to receive unmerited grace from God.
The NT teaching that election to salvation (NOT based on action or God seeing my action - how sad to make ME in charge of my election!!) and God giving grace is NOT just to the Jews.
John carefully points this out on a number of passages.
"Not to us only (Jews), but to the world (including Gentile dogs, too)"
"For God so loved the world (including Gentile dogs, too, not just Jews) . . "
To imply that God elected ONLY Jews is wrong. He elected Bob to be the receipient of unmerited grace. I know I didn't!!
The NT teaching that election to salvation (NOT based on action or God seeing my action - how sad to make ME in charge of my election!!) and God giving grace is NOT just to the Jews.
John carefully points this out on a number of passages.
"Not to us only (Jews), but to the world (including Gentile dogs, too)"
"For God so loved the world (including Gentile dogs, too, not just Jews) . . "
To imply that God elected ONLY Jews is wrong. He elected Bob to be the receipient of unmerited grace. I know I didn't!!
glfredrick
New Member
Have you not Read Paul, Peter, or John?
They were each writing to churches where they called the members "elect" and the churches were not "Israel" as they were in large part in the Gentile world.
What do you say let's all get back on topic? All of us got off topic. Here is the subject of the OP:
It is a common assault by Arminians that Calvinists are not evangelistic and that Calvinism dampens evangelistic fervor.
Do you think that is true?
It is awful hard to make that case from history, isn't it?
As a matter of fact the great evangelists have tended to be Calvinistic. With the exception of Moody, Finney, and Wesley, I cannot think of hardly any Arminian evangelists of real renown. One might argue that Billy Graham was an Arminian, and I suppose he was a two pointer most of his life, but he just admitted recently that he never had time to read the Bible like he needed and sat down and read it through in two months and became a 5-point Calvinist.
It seems to me that almost all other major names in truly Christian history of renown were Calvinists.
Spurgeon, the father of the mega church, was a thorough Calvinist.
William Carey, the great Baptist missionary, was a Calvinist.
Lottie Moon, the woman whose name labels Southern Baptist International Missions, was herself a Calvinist.
Jonathan Edwards, the most brilliant theological and philosophical mind in American history and the fountainhead of the Great Awakening was a mighty Calvinist,
George Whitefield the spreader of the Great Awakening fire throughout the colonies was a Calvinist,
the Pilgrims, though perhaps not evangelists, certainly the bringers of the Gospel to this Continent, were Calvinists,
the Puritans were Calvinists,
Matthew Henry, the mighty Commentator whose commentary has touched the lives of multiplied millions was a Calvinist,
John Bunyan whose Pilgrim's Progress has convinced many to enter the Kingdom was a Calvinist,
of course Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation which may be responsible for bringing more people into the Kingdom of God than any other event since Pentecost, was a Calvinist,
John Wycliffe, the 'Morning Star of the Reformation', was a Calvinist,
John Huss, the great martyr for the faith, was a Calvinist,
Augustine was a Calvinist,
the Apostle Paul was a Calvinist, and the list goes on and on...
So the argument is utterly ridiculous and really just asinine that says that Calvinists are not evangelistic.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Christ is our example
Romans 12:
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
1 Corinthians 12 :
Unity and Diversity in the Body
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[Or with; or in] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
a. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[Or other languages
]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
We are different in the body and have different deeds, no matter what group you are in. We are all important in the body.
Romans 12:
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
1 Corinthians 12 :
Unity and Diversity in the Body
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[Or with; or in] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
a. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[Or other languages
]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
We are different in the body and have different deeds, no matter what group you are in. We are all important in the body.
I don't mean to be disrespectful here, Psalms, but what does this have to do with the discussion at hand?
We all read our Bibles, Psalms. Debate is more than copying and pasting large passages of Scripture.
We have a daily Bible reading thread if you wish to catch us all up on our daily Bible reading.
If you don't have any arguments to make or questions to ask or helpful comments to add (which requires an exposition of passages, not just copying and pasting them)you should not be posting on debate threads.
If you are going to copy and paste large passages of Scripture, then please do the work of exposition and make a relevant point in your posts.
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What do you say let's all get back on topic? All of us got off topic. Here is the subject of the OP:
It is a common assault by Arminians that Calvinists are not evangelistic and that Calvinism dampens evangelistic fervor.
Do you think that is true?
It is awful hard to make that case from history, isn't it?
As a matter of fact the great evangelists have tended to be Calvinistic. With the exception of Moody, Finney, and Wesley, I cannot think of hardly any Arminian evangelists of real renown. One might argue that Billy Graham was an Arminian, and I suppose he was a two pointer most of his life, but he just admitted recently that he never had time to read the Bible like he needed and sat down and read it through in two months and became a 5-point Calvinist.
It seems to me that almost all other major names in truly Christian history of renown were Calvinists.
Spurgeon, the father of the mega church, was a thorough Calvinist.
William Carey, the great Baptist missionary, was a Calvinist.
Lottie Moon, the woman whose name labels Southern Baptist International Missions, was herself a Calvinist.
Jonathan Edwards, the most brilliant theological and philosophical mind in American history and the fountainhead of the Great Awakening was a mighty Calvinist,
George Whitefield the spreader of the Great Awakening fire throughout the colonies was a Calvinist,
the Pilgrims, though perhaps not evangelists, certainly the bringers of the Gospel to this Continent, were Calvinists,
the Puritans were Calvinists,
Matthew Henry, the mighty Commentator whose commentary has touched the lives of multiplied millions was a Calvinist,
John Bunyan whose Pilgrim's Progress has convinced many to enter the Kingdom was a Calvinist,
of course Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation which may be responsible for bringing more people into the Kingdom of God than any other event since Pentecost, was a Calvinist,
John Wycliffe, the 'Morning Star of the Reformation', was a Calvinist,
John Huss, the great martyr for the faith, was a Calvinist,
Augustine was a Calvinist,
the Apostle Paul was a Calvinist, and the list goes on and on...
So the argument is utterly ridiculous and really just asinine that says that Calvinists are not evangelistic.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Spurgeon
When Spurgeon preached, He didn't exclude anybody, what ever his belief might of been.
He wrote in his notes to shout this."And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
http://www.asermon.com/spurgeon/spurgeon-immeasurablelove.html
To believe in both sides of the coin, and not half of His word.
I don't believe we should not talk down to anyone evangelist but go and spread the good news of Christ
When Spurgeon preached, He didn't exclude anybody, what ever his belief might of been.
He wrote in his notes to shout this."And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
http://www.asermon.com/spurgeon/spurgeon-immeasurablelove.html
To believe in both sides of the coin, and not half of His word.
I don't believe we should not talk down to anyone evangelist but go and spread the good news of Christ
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glfredrick
New Member
Which Calvinist excludes someone from hearing the gospel? Please share! Name names!
Would you consider John Piper a Calvinist? Most do...
Listen to this introduction to a sermon he delivered. It is worth it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuX6U-nX_8
psalms109:31
Active Member
Excluded anyone can come, as Spurgeon says those who trust in the Lord.
World isn't as small to God as you see it.
I see these are the one's who will not be disapointed, God will hide the truth from the wise and the leaned and those who trust in His Son are the one's He will keep. If you read the scripture you will find no one has been cut out for trusting in Jesus, but for unbelief. God isn't waiting for us to trust in His son these are the one's He chosen to save. He knows who they are.
World isn't as small to God as you see it.
I see these are the one's who will not be disapointed, God will hide the truth from the wise and the leaned and those who trust in His Son are the one's He will keep. If you read the scripture you will find no one has been cut out for trusting in Jesus, but for unbelief. God isn't waiting for us to trust in His son these are the one's He chosen to save. He knows who they are.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Psalms, I for one appreciated you laying out the passage of Scripture above. It gave me another opportunity to read His Word.
No complaint here.
Thanks.
Spurgeon said in his autobiography that Calvinism was the Gospel. Quoted...
"We only use the term ‘Calvinism’ for shortness. That doctrine that is called ‘Calvinist’ did not spring from Calvin; we believe that it sprang from the great founder of all truth. Perhaps Calvin himself derived it mainly from the writings of Augustine. Augustine obtained his views, without a doubt, through the Spirit of God, from the diligent study of the writings of Paul, and Paul received them of the Holy Ghost, from Jesus Christ, the great founder of the Christian dispensation. We use the term then, not because we impute any extraordinary importance to Calvin’s having taught these doctrines." (Drummond, Prince of Preachers, 611)
Also, asserted the doctrine of Limited Atonement, stating that the idea of Christ having died for those who end up in hell "monstrous iniquity" that blasphemes the Righteousness of God (Spurgeon's Autobiography, Vol I, 175).
Spurgeon was a full on five point Calvinist.
Tom Butler
New Member
Thanks, web. Appreciate the clarification. I disagree with it, of course, but your position is clear to me now. I'm interested, though, in how you arrived at the conclusion that the elect refers to believing Jews. Please explain.
When you look at how the term is used in context throughout the NT (eklegomai, eklektos, and ekloge or elect, choose and chosen) particularly by Paul in his letters, there is a pattern. Ironically the first use of the phrase in the NT was by Jesus in Matthew 24:15-31, and "elect" is used 3 times in that portion of Scripture. The first 2 uses by Christ are referring to Daniel's prophecy about the time of Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation, where God has set aside the 144k of the tribes of Israel as His servants (the "elect"). Jesus' use of the elect here is not pertaining to gentiles or gentile believers.
The 3rd time He uses the phrase is not referring to those on earth, but could either be understood as angels (elect angels) or deceased saints since they are being gathered from one end of the heavens to the other. Jesus' use of the phrase was prior to the gentiles being targeted with the Gospel.
Paul's use of the phrase starts in Romans 9-11 (regarding Jews) and the pattern of speaking of the jewish people continues throughout his letters (1 and 2 Timothy, Titus) and also Peter's (1 and 2 Peter).
"Not all Israel is Israel". True Israel are the elect, and we have been grafted in alongside them
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