Calvinism opposing Calvin??

[steaver]

I am not allowed to participate in the special baptist forum so I am re-posting a post from Jerome here so all of us can share our thoughts.

Jerome posted...

"John Calvin, Commentary on Jn 8:32

"when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith"


John Calvin, Commentary on Rom 4:16:

"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace;...Hence, also, we may easily learn, that grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration,"


Belgic Confession:

"We believe that this true faith being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God, and the operation of the Holy Ghost, doth regenerate and make him a new man, causing him to live a new life, and freeing him from the bondage of sin."


Reformed Baptist theologian Timothy George, in Theology of the Reformers:

"being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result"


Prominent late 1700s English Particular Baptist pastor Abraham Booth, in Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners:

"To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other— Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."


SBC Founder John Dagg, in his Manual of Theology:

"Faith is necessary to the Christian character; and must therefore precede regeneration, when this is understood in its widest sense. Even in the restricted sense, in which it denotes the beginning of the spiritual life, faith, in the sense in which James uses the term, may precede."


Charles Spurgeon, in "The Warrant of Faith":

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate."

So why do we call "Reformed Theology" Calvinism? Do Calvinist understand exactly what Calvin preached?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Guess you are asking if Calvinism is in fact synonymous with Reformed Theology?

 

[steaver]

Guess you are asking if Calvinism is in fact synonymous with Reformed Theology?

I guess...

 

[utilyan]

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

::: Puts glasses on:::

24You see that a man is justified by faith alone and not by works alone


" But regeneration proceeds from faith"

::: Puts glasses on:::

"But faith proceeds from regeneration"

 

[rsr]

I guess...

The answer is no.

Reformed theology is more than Calvin, astonishing as it may be. I know that "Calvinism" is a shortcut for reformed theology, but there were many fellow laborers in the vineyard, some of whom disagreed with him. Reformed theology is a broad stream that owes much to Calvin, but not everything.

 

[rsr]

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

::: Puts glasses on:::

24You see that a man is justified by faith alone and not by works alone


" But regeneration proceeds from faith"

::: Puts glasses on:::

"But faith proceeds from regeneration"

God forbid that Augustine or Jerome or Aquinas would write contradictions. How dare they? Must be charlatans as well. The early Catholic writers can't even get straight who was the first pope, let alone whether that's even an office.

 

[Rippon]

The answer is no.

Reformed theology is more than Calvin, astonishing as it may be. I know that "Calvinism" is a shortcut for reformed theology, but there were many fellow laborers in the vineyard, some of whom disagreed with him. Reformed theology is a broad stream that owes much to Calvin, but not everyting.

I agree with most of the above. However, Calvin was at the very least first among equals for the second generation of Reformers. Only Heinrich Bullinger might be seen as a contender for first place （if I can use that kind of language).

 

[JonC]

I am not allowed to participate in the special baptist forum so I am re-posting a post from Jerome here so all of us can share our thoughts.

Jerome posted...

"John Calvin, Commentary on Jn 8:32

"when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith"


John Calvin, Commentary on Rom 4:16:

"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace;...Hence, also, we may easily learn, that grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration,"


Belgic Confession:

"We believe that this true faith being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God, and the operation of the Holy Ghost, doth regenerate and make him a new man, causing him to live a new life, and freeing him from the bondage of sin."


Reformed Baptist theologian Timothy George, in Theology of the Reformers:

"being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result"


Prominent late 1700s English Particular Baptist pastor Abraham Booth, in Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners:

"To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other— Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."


SBC Founder John Dagg, in his Manual of Theology:

"Faith is necessary to the Christian character; and must therefore precede regeneration, when this is understood in its widest sense. Even in the restricted sense, in which it denotes the beginning of the spiritual life, faith, in the sense in which James uses the term, may precede."


Charles Spurgeon, in "The Warrant of Faith":

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate."

So why do we call "Reformed Theology" Calvinism? Do Calvinist understand exactly what Calvin preached?

It depends on who's doing the defining, I suppose, as "Reformed" can be applied to groups that were influential or were influenced by the Reformation (to include Lutherans as well as Arminianism and Amyraldinianism). Initially "Calvinism" referred to a distinction between Luther and Calvin over the nature of the presence of Christ in communion (the title was coined by Lutherans). Calvin preferred "Reformed". Those on the Baptist section of this board typically use "Reformed" to refer to the position the Dutch Reformed Church took at the Synod of Dort in response to the five articles, long after Calvin's death.

 

[Rippon]

Initially "Calvinism" referred to a distinction between Luther and Calvin over the nature of the presence of Christ in communion (the title was coined by Lutherans).

Luther expressed his happiness at Calvin's formulation regarding communion.

 

[HankD]

Labels! yes we need them but that doesn't mean I have to like them.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

Labels are important as they identify what is inside. Just look at all the cans in your pantry and imagine what it would be like if there were no labels.

 

[HankD]

Labels are important as they identify what is inside. Just look at all the cans in your pantry and imagine what it would be like if there were no labels.

GREAT!!, I love challenges with surprises (unless they are canned garden peas ).

HankD

 

[Jerome]

Those on the Baptist section of this board typically use "Reformed" to refer to the position the Dutch Reformed Church took at the Synod of Dort in response to the five articles

Gomarism is the most authentic and fitting term:

Dictionary of Religion, p. 476:

"Gomarists or Anti-Remonstrants. —The opponents of the Arminians. They take their name from their leader, Francis Gomar, who was born at Bruges in 1563. He commenced his studies at Strasburg and Heidelberg, and in 1582 came to England, and went first to Oxford and then to Cambridge, where he took his B. D. in 1581. In 1594 he was elected Professor of Divinity at Leyden, and he is chiefly known for his violent opposition to the doctrines of his colleague Arminius. He was present at the Synod of Doit, in 1618, and was the main instrument in getting the Arminians expelled from the Reformed Church."

 

[HankD]

I am not allowed to participate in the special baptist forum so I am re-posting a post from Jerome here so all of us can share our thoughts.

Jerome posted...

"John Calvin, Commentary on Jn 8:32

"when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith"

Apart from saying I agree with Calvin - I would say I agree with the statement above that "regeneration proceeds from faith".

Besides, why wouldn't modern Calvinists agree?
God presumably calls His elect and deals with them in whatever way He chooses including the salvific order of events here on planet earth.


HankD

 

[JonC]

Gomarism is the most authentic and fitting term:

Dictionary of Religion, p. 476:

"Gomarists or Anti-Remonstrants. —The opponents of the Arminians. They take their name from their leader, Francis Gomar, who was born at Bruges in 1563. He commenced his studies at Strasburg and Heidelberg, and in 1582 came to England, and went first to Oxford and then to Cambridge, where he took his B. D. in 1581. In 1594 he was elected Professor of Divinity at Leyden, and he is chiefly known for his violent opposition to the doctrines of his colleague Arminius. He was present at the Synod of Doit, in 1618, and was the main instrument in getting the Arminians expelled from the Reformed Church."

Yes, and during Arminius' lifetime the courts concluded both views could coexist within orthodox Calvinism. But again, most Baptists consider Calvinism to be the "Doctrines of Grace" or the 5 points (even though they never previously defined Calvinism).

 

[JonC]

Luther expressed his happiness at Calvin's formulation regarding communion.

I think Calvin articulated his view better, particularly later in his ministry as he seemed to lean in ways more towards Luther rather than Zwingli.

 

[steaver]

Apart from saying I agree with Calvin - I would say I agree with the statement above that "regeneration proceeds from faith".

Faith is a "complete trust or confidence in someone or something". So in our case we are speaking of COMPLETE trust in Jesus Christ. Can this trust be complete without absolute knowledge? Can this trust be complete without regeneration?

I believe this unfolds in stages;
1) One believes there is a preponderance of the evidence given about Jesus Christ (the Bible, what has been written, prophecy, miracles, etc) Faith comes by hearing the Word of God
2) That same evidence reveals that the Holy Spirit moves upon the heart of the unbeliever to confirm the truth of the testimonies.
3) When one sees the evidence is very solid and one experiences the Holy Spirit confirming the truth of the evidence, then one is faced with the consequences of the testimony. One must choose if they want to follow what they have just been strongly persuaded is the truth (not absolutely sure yet, but strongly persuaded), both by evidence and by the Holy Ghost, or if they want to continue in their sins.
4) If one chooses to follow then one does as the Scripture instructs and calls upon the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation (repenting of unbelief) and submitting to the Holy Spirit. Which upon the call is given the Holy Spirit rebirth, a new creation, sealing them unto the day of redemption.
5) Then one will have COMPLETE trust (faith) in Jesus Christ. A know so faith and not a hope so faith.

I believe this is played out in the four soils example. Only the fourth is the born again saved.

 

[HankD]

Faith is a "complete trust or confidence in someone or something". So in our case we are speaking of COMPLETE trust in Jesus Christ. Can this trust be complete without absolute knowledge? Can this trust be complete without regeneration?

I believe this unfolds in stages;
1) One believes there is a preponderance of the evidence given about Jesus Christ (the Bible, what has been written, prophecy, miracles, etc) Faith comes by hearing the Word of God
2) That same evidence reveals that the Holy Spirit moves upon the heart of the unbeliever to confirm the truth of the testimonies.
3) When one sees the evidence is very solid and one experiences the Holy Spirit confirming the truth of the evidence, then one is faced with the consequences of the testimony. One must choose if they want to follow what they have just been strongly persuaded is the truth (not absolutely sure yet, but strongly persuaded), both by evidence and by the Holy Ghost, or if they want to continue in their sins.
4) If one chooses to follow then one does as the Scripture instructs and calls upon the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation (repenting of unbelief) and submitting to the Holy Spirit. Which upon the call is given the Holy Spirit rebirth, a new creation, sealing them unto the day of redemption.

I believe this is played out in the four soils example. Only the fourth is the born again saved.

It's possible. with God all things are possible.

e.g John the Baptist "filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb".

Presumably these things you describe would have had to happen while in His mother's womb.

So we might say "he was an exception" - well it still proves the point that God "calls the shots".


HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

The answer is no.

Reformed theology is more than Calvin, astonishing as it may be. I know that "Calvinism" is a shortcut for reformed theology, but there were many fellow laborers in the vineyard, some of whom disagreed with him. Reformed theology is a broad stream that owes much to Calvin, but not everyting.

To be proper, Calvin Himself really did not develop Calvinism, as those main points were put together after him, and those points are most on Presbyterian, and not the Baptist side of reformed/Calvinism!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think Calvin articulated his view better, particularly later in his ministry as he seemed to lean in ways more towards Luther rather than Zwingli.

Neither would hold to the sacraments though as Baptists do.