Calvinism opposing Calvin??

[steaver]

He is the "firstborn" from the dead in a glorified body. Lazerus was never raised in a glorified body.

Good point!

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) " (John 7:38-39)

Lazarus believed, yet he did not yet have flowing out of his belly rivers of living water, for Jesus was not yet glorified.

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." (John 4:10)

What is the "Gift of God"? Eternal life (John 4:14, Ro 6:23)

What is the vehicle by which eternal life is given? "If thou knewest the gift of God [eternal life], and who it is that saith [Savoir, Messiah, Son of God] to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him [Luke 11:13], and he would have given thee living water [Holy Spirit, John 4:10, John 3 "ye must be born again"]." (John 4:10)

The woman did ask, although she did not understand...

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw." (vs 15)

Jesus pointed her towards her sin, which was not yet dealt with at the cross...

"For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly." (vs 18)

The woman left believing, but her sins were not yet paid for, she did not yet receive the Holy Spirit, Living Water, Born-Again, for Jesus Christ was not yet glorified.

Folks try to dismiss these plainly presented truths by making John 7:38-39 about Pentecost. However, it is clear from the scripture that the "Living Water" is about eternal life, the rebirth and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. This is clearly presented here...

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" (John 20:22)

Pentecost came afterwards and is clearly about receiving Power for ministry through miracles and wonders to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The disciples had already received the Holy Ghost living water regeneration when Jesus met with them after He was glorified.

 

[steaver]

David was not Jesse's firstborn but God made him firstborn in order to make him king (kings had to be firstborn) over Israel.
God decreed him (David) firstborn to make him king of Israel.

Could you provide scripture for this? Thanks!

 

[HankD]

Could you provide scripture for this? Thanks!

Psalm 89
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

Psalm 89 is speaking about Messiah, Jesus Christ, not David, but you already knew that.

HankD

 

[steaver]

Psalm 89
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
HankD

This Psalm is of Jesus NOT David. I thought you knew this.

Now show me where this information is found in scripture....

"David was not Jesse's firstborn but God made him firstborn in order to make him king (kings had to be firstborn) over Israel.
God decreed him (David) firstborn to make him king of Israel."

 

[HankD]

This Psalm is of Jesus NOT David. I thought you knew this.

Now show me where this information is found in scripture....

"David was not Jesse's firstborn but God made him firstborn in order to make him king (kings had to be firstborn) over Israel.
God decreed him (David) firstborn to make him king of Israel."

i already explained it to you - it is a model of Christ's assignment of Firstborn - based upon David's choice as king of Israel.

Let me shout it - BOTH ARE TRUE.

oops - sorry

HankD

 

[steaver]

i already explained it to you

An explanation without reference to scripture.

Where does Scripture state what you say?

1) "...(kings had to be firstborn) over Israel."
2) "God decreed him (David) firstborn to make him king of Israel."

 

[HankD]

An explanation without reference to scripture.

Where does Scripture state what you say?

1) "...(kings had to be firstborn) over Israel."

There is no definitive scripture but it was common among Semitic peoples.
2 Kings 3:27 Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The fury against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land.


Not answering #2 for the third time.


HankD

 

[steaver]

Not answering #2 for the third time.

Your answer does not line up with the Scripture.

Not answering #2 for the third time.

You have not proven from Scripture that Psalm 89 is speaking of both David and Jesus. We have Scripture which proves it is speaking about Jesus. There is no other Scripture supporting your position that God declared David a firstborn so that the people would accept David as their king.

 

[HankD]

Your answer does not line up with the Scripture.


You have not proven from Scripture that Psalm 89 is speaking of both David and Jesus. We have Scripture which proves it is speaking about Jesus. There is no other Scripture supporting your position that God declared David a firstborn so that the people would accept David as their king.

So say you but you are wrong.

BTW you defined my conclusion perfectly - "supporting your position that God declared David a firstborn so that the people would accept David as their king" - without me iterating it so precisely.
Not bad and thank you.

BTW This is a debate forum so the outcome is not up to you or I but the audience.

Firstborn does not necessarily depend on serial positioning but more likely preeminence.

HankD

 

[steaver]

Firstborn does not necessarily depend on serial positioning but more likely preeminence.

That's a nice thought, but Psalm 89 is speaking directly to first in a series "I will make". Not "He is". Or "David was". That's why I said you have not proven your position with Psalm 89.

There is a point in time when the Son of God became Jesus of Nazareth. There is a point in time when Jesus of Nazareth became the firstborn of many brethren and the firstborn of the church of Jesus Christ. As the Psalm saith, "I will make"......

 

[HankD]

That's a nice thought, but Psalm 89 is speaking directly to first in a series "I will make". Not "He is". Or "David was". That's why I said you have not proven your position with Psalm 89.
.

Thank you for proving my point.

But like I said the readers will choose not you or I.

HankD

 

[steaver]

But like I said the readers will choose not you or I.

Psalm 89 does not beg interpretation whether it is a preeminence or whether it is a first in a series concerning the Son of God becoming the firstborn...."I will make". The reader can except what it says or dismiss it, but either way the reader chooses God's Word stands as written. Blessings!

 

[HankD]

Psalm 89 does not beg interpretation whether it is a preeminence or whether it is a first in a series concerning the Son of God becoming the firstborn...."I will make". The reader can except what it says or dismiss it, but either way the reader chooses God's Word stands as written. Blessings!

And blessings to you brother.

HankD

 

[The Biblicist]

Good point!

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) " (John 7:38-39)

Lazarus believed, yet he did not yet have flowing out of his belly rivers of living water, for Jesus was not yet glorified.

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." (John 4:10)

What is the "Gift of God"? Eternal life (John 4:14, Ro 6:23)

What is the vehicle by which eternal life is given? "If thou knewest the gift of God [eternal life], and who it is that saith [Savoir, Messiah, Son of God] to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him [Luke 11:13], and he would have given thee living water [Holy Spirit, John 4:10, John 3 "ye must be born again"]." (John 4:10)

The woman did ask, although she did not understand...

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw." (vs 15)

Jesus pointed her towards her sin, which was not yet dealt with at the cross...

"For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly." (vs 18)

The woman left believing, but her sins were not yet paid for, she did not yet receive the Holy Spirit, Living Water, Born-Again, for Jesus Christ was not yet glorified.

Folks try to dismiss these plainly presented truths by making John 7:38-39 about Pentecost. However, it is clear from the scripture that the "Living Water" is about eternal life, the rebirth and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. This is clearly presented here...

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" (John 20:22)

Pentecost came afterwards and is clearly about receiving Power for ministry through miracles and wonders to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The disciples had already received the Holy Ghost living water regeneration when Jesus met with them after He was glorified.

I believe there is a difference between a well of water WITHIN you and water flowng OUT from you. Believers in all ages have had the indwelling Spirit as all without it "are none of his" (Rom.8:8-9). Even post-Pentecost saints are powerless to please God and overcome indwelling sin without the indwelling Spirit (Rom.7:18). Pre-Pentecost saints had the same problem of indwelling sin and yet they pleased God (Heb. 11:6). Pentecost is not about salvation or the Spirit coming to indwell individuals but about the divine confirmation and indwelling of a new visible covenant administrator within the kingdom of God establishing it as "the house of God the pillar and ground of the truth." It was an historical non-repeatable event.