This is patently false.
I have kept my word and given you definitions on the terms you have asked me to define.
Until you recognize this there is no purpose in going any further.
I'll address the rest of your post when you do.
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Calvinism/origin of sin 2
- Thread starter Luke2427
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This is patently false.
I have kept my word and given you definitions on the terms you have asked me to define.
Until you recognize this there is no purpose in going any further.
I'll address the rest of your post when you do.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Depends on what you mean by decree... :BangHead:
Osage Bluestem
Member
Decree. God has made sure the sin will happen period. However, during the carrying out of the plan the man is tempted to do the sin either by himself or a spirit. God doesn't sit on one's shoulder and woo him to sin.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Simmer down now, Luke. I simply meant you have yet to define the terms you used in that post: "God has ORDERED that evil come to pass" and "God INTENDED for it to come to pass."
When you speak of God "ordering" and "intending" evil I cringe because like the words "decree" and "ordain" they are ambiguous terms that can be taken in more than one way. I don't want you telling me and others, with your terms and there unknown intent, what I believe, which is why I corrected you.
Look forward to it.
I have defined it. Either you are being dishonest or you are not keeping up. I defined it in the previous thread in which we were discussing this matter.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
No, he just predetermines his desires so that he must sin and could not willingly choose to do otherwise...that is much better. :tear:
Osage Bluestem
Member
Right. Each man fulfills God's purpose for him and does his part in God's plan.
Romans 9:19-23
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory
Reprobates exist to make the riches of God's glory known to the Elect.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)
Remember you showed that the evil in this verse is synonymous with calamity in other translation. That is what it refers to: calamity; natural disasters that God brings upon the earth. It does not refer to man's sin. You are taking the verse out of its context. You are eisegeting instead of exegeting. You are reading your Calvinistic theology into the verse instead of objectively looking at the verse and asking "What does it really mean?"
It does not mean that God is the author of sin, which you imply. It does not mean that God creates sin. Only man sins, not God. To say such is blasphemy. When Christ was on this earth he never sinned. Only a sinless person could die for sinners.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)
Christ is not "the sinner dying for the sinner," as your brand of Calvinism teaches. You have opposed this basic teaching of Scripture by attributing sin to God, or do you deny that Christ is God?
Secondly, as I have already mentioned and demonstrated it is the Calvinist ruse that he must go to a passage such as you have referenced in Acts four to use to bolster up his theology. You won't find anyone on this board who disagrees that Christ is the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. This argument is moot. It is a red herring. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Long before the world was created God knew he was going to send his son to die for our sins. What has that got to do with this subject?? Nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It has nothing to do with God decreeing that a woman be raped.
It has nothing to do with God decreeing that a baby be aborted.
It has nothing to do with genocide taking place in a nation.
It has nothing to do with the ruthless actions of a murderous dictator.
It has nothing to do with the actions of Islamic suicide bombers like the ones who crashed into the WTC killing thousand.
Were those sinful actions all decreed by God?
No. They were sin, the choices of sinful men, who by their own choice chose to rebel against a holy God, their sinful actions arising out of a sinful heart and a sinful nature that they inherited from Adam as a result of the Fall.
Do not attribute their evil to God.
Fred's Wife
Member
IMO, this all sounds like "fatalism". Makes me glad I'm not a Calvinist.
Osage Bluestem
Member
Their actions are their actions they are the ones who did them, however God decreed them. God has decreed every thing that will come to pass.
Q. 7. What are the decrees of God?
A. The decrees of God are, his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass.[22]
[22] Psalm 33:11. The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. Isaiah 14:24. The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: Acts 2:23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Ephesians 1:11-12. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Calvinism is the only exegetical system that actualy deals with all of the passages of scripture. We have no problem with the God of the Old Testament and find perfect harmony with the Christ of the New Testament. God is God forever.
He is sovereign and works all things according to the council of his will. It is plain scriptural exegesis not eisegesis.
I agree with Vincent Cheung that the best answer to the charge by some that calvinism makes God the author of sin is to just say, So what who are you o man to talk back to God? Romans 9
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Speaks of God's omniscience. There is nothing in this verse saying that all things are pre-determined by God. Personally I am thankful that God "has thoughts (or cares) about me. How you take this out of context.
Again, God's thoughts, his care. There is nothing negative here. Nothing about sin; nothing about God decreeing sin. You are deliberately taking Scripture out of context and reading a skewed brand of Calvinism into it. The basic meaning: God cares for his children. Read Romans 8:28 to get a better perspective of this verse.
You keep referring to prophecies about Christ. They are moot; they are red herrings. Do you revel in comparing Christ to rapists? Really?? Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. What has that got to do with this discussion? Nothing. Yet in some weird way you think it does. You put Christ in the same class as the most horrific of sinner. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
What does this have to do with unsaved rapists and Islamic suicide bombers? Do you even follow this discussion?
Predestination always refers to the believer. You can see this from this passage. Who is predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after his own counsel? It is the saved, the believer. The answer is very obvious from verse 12--That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted Christ. Is this talking about the unsaved rapist, the Islamic suicide bomber? No!
Your brand of Calvinism is a myth. You haven't quoted one verse of Scripture that stands the test of what you believe.
I believe God is sovereign also. But a sovereign God allows for free will. If God cannot do that, then God is not sovereign. Thus your view of God is that He is not sovereign. You have taken away from the sovereignty of God by denying his power.
Who art thou o man to deny the power of God, and make him less than God. Your position, as far as I am concerned contains serious doctrinal error.
Osage Bluestem
Member
If God is indeed omniscient then he is sovereign and has not learned, cannot learn, will not learn. He has determined everything. He is never surprised or informed.
The only way to care for his family is to be in charge. God's will is always done and no one can ever overrule his decrees.
Not at all. You are reaching illogical conclusions. I said the condemnation of Christ by men is the most heinous sin ever, worse than anything else you could think of. Even in that, however God's will was done. As is clear in Acts 4.
They all serve a purpose. Eventually they will all suffer the wrath of God in hell and God will be glofified intheir destruction.
Ephesians 1:11 says that God works all things according to the council of his will.
I certainly have. Those were from the Westminster catechism actually. That is considered one of the most orthodox documents of the protestant reformation.
That's silly. No one denied man's "free will." Man is culpable for his decisions. However God is sovereign and his plan doesn't work off of man's decisions it works off of God's decisions. In essence you deny the sovereignty of God entirely and put him at man's beckon and call.
Your position as far as I'm concerned contains serious doctrinal error. I believe your position is semi pelagian. Look that up in the theopedia.
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The author is the sinner because it is he who first thought of doing it. Which by the way is just another sin. Not because I say so but, Because the Bible says so.
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Satan is the ruler of this world for now. If God were the ruler there would be no sin just as there will not be when He returns and takes the thrown of David.
Don't be so ridiculous.
Sin is a by product of the Laws of God. It didn't exist until man with his own free will chose to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. First man thought of doing it and then he did. Man is the author of his own sin. Not God. This should be obvious to everyone.
There are only two options in life. Obey God or disobey. God gave man those options and Man chose to disobey. Man is the author of his own sin. It has nothing to do with what God allows because God gave man the freewill to choose. If God allowed sin there would be no punishment for it.
Your only explanation for sin is always that it's God's fault, isn't it?.
MB
False premise = false conclusion.
The verse spoke about God's omniscience, but you in your Calvinistic mindset added determinism. You concluded something that was not there to begin with.
The premise: Cars run on gas.
The conclusion: Cars run on gas and wheels, and have never run on anything else but wheels.
A non sequitor. We aren't talking of wheels, as you inserted. We are speaking of what the verse spoke about (cars and gas) [God and omniscience]. Why insert into the passage something that is not there even if you believe it to be true.
Another non sequitor. Is that what the verse is talking about? no.
He is speaking of his children; not the unsaved. Stay on topic. Nothing in the verse states that God decreed sin.
And there is no one on this board that disagrees with that. Your point is not only redundant, but has nothing to do with the discussion.
Unless Christ is a rapist or suicide bomber, it is non sequitor.
God doesn't decree sin.
No one here denies the omniscience of God. We all agree on that point.
The point of disagreement is that God never decreed that the rapist rape. He raped because he made the evil decision of his own free will to do so. God did not decree it, nor force him to do it. You are attributing evil to God, making him a monster. We also know the outcome. That is not the point in the discussion.
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Ephesians 1:11-12)
--Context! Context!
"That we should be to the praise of his glory who first trusted in Christ."
There is nothing in verse 11 that speaks of the unsaved rapist, etc. It is directed to the saved, the believers, the sanctified in Christ, etc. Again, you take Scripture out of context.
The Westminster catechism is not my authority; the Bible is. I am sorry if you have not the Scriptures as your authority any more.
What I said is this:
"You haven't quoted one verse of Scripture that stands the test of what you believe."
--And you haven't. I have refuted each and every one of them. You take them all out of context. You look at them only with Calvinistic eyes. You are blind to the truth.
I can gather many quotes from this board where you and others deny the free will of man. Please don't try to deny that now. Everything is pre-determined. Man has no free will. That is Calvinism.
I don't have to. It is not my position. Others know that and you should too. Again you have taken away the free will of man and made him nothing more than a robot by putting such a strong emphasis on pre-determinism. You also have made God the author of evil to the point of making God a sinner himself.
That very verse undermines your idea.
What makes the looking sin? It is the motive of it. Looking TO lust.
God can will that sin be for a glorious motive.
He does.
Without sin there could be no saving grace to bestow and to experience forever.
Without sin there could be no infinite mercy to display and appreciate forever.
Without sin there could be no Redeemer receiving the reward of his suffering forever, partly in the form of the praises of a multitude which no man can number which will ring out from the portals of Glory forever. None of this is possible had sin not ever come to exist.
No blood of Christ, no victorious resurrection from the grave, no song of the redeemed that the angels cannot sing, no salvation which the angels of heaven long to look into- NONE OF THAT- had there never been sin.
How anyone would begrudge God for planning a world from whence those glorious things will spring is beyond me.
When did Satan get this rule?
God does not need sin in order to be glorified.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
God's glory includes all His attributes such as mercy, peace, love, truth, justice. He IS all these things. He did not become these things because of sin.
If sin showed the glory of God, He would command us to sin. But instead He commands us to sin NOT.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
God's glory includes all His attributes such as mercy, peace, love, truth, justice. He IS all these things. He did not become these things because of sin.
If sin showed the glory of God, He would command us to sin. But instead He commands us to sin NOT.
Osage Bluestem
Member
That's not what is going on here at all. You used teh word omniscience. That means all knowing. If that is the case (and I certainly believe it is) God doesn't learn. If he never learns and there are things that exist, guess how those things came to be! God didn't one day learn of their existance. He brought them into existance.
One must use the entire bible and observe the law of non contradiction when one exegets scripture to arrive at doctrine. The bibel clearly teaches that God decrees sin. Acts 4:27-28.
You blow things out of proportion and Axts 4:27-28 clearly shows God decrees sin.
Actually you are the one saying that God's decrees are evil. That is not the case as Genesis 50:20 clearly says. And obviously we do not agree that God is Omnscient. If we did you would agree with me.
THe context is fine, but there is more revealed in teh statement than just the main point. It says God works all things according to the council of his will.
CH Spurgeon who used the same question 7 in his own catechism agrees with me.
7. Q. What are the decrees of God?
A. The decrees of God are his eternal purpose according to the counsel of his
own will, whereby for his own glory he has foreordained whatever comes to pass.
(Ephesians 1:11,12)
Ephesians 1:11,12 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to
the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who
first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Link: http://www.ccri.ca/Spurgeon_Catechism.pdf
CH Spurgeon (a notable Baptist) used the Westminster confession to form his own catechism. He used that catechism in his own Church and above I quoted question 7 which is identical to the Westminster. Both Spurgeon and I maintain that scripture is our authority and we both agree on the meaning of it.
Everything is predetermined but that doesn't undermine man's "free will" or his culpability for sin. Man does whatever he feels like doing within his power and daring.
God is the author of sin. That doesn't mean that he is a sinner. He is God and knows the best path to take for the best possible outcome that is the path he has chosen to decree. Read Genesis 50:20. Man does things with evil intent and it is sinful because man breaks the law of God in word thought and deed. God does things with good intent and it is not evil because God's good intents are always good deeds.
You are right.
But it does not change the fact that sin IS necessary if he is to manifest his love to the FULLEST.
Without sin there can be no saving grace, no Calvary love, displayed and bestowed and experienced and praised, can there?
Without sin there can be no Redeemer receiving forever the reward of his suffering, can there?
Without sin there can be no infinite mercy to be praised and appreciated forever, can there?
Without sin there can be no great salvation that the angels long to look into, can there?
You really need to get a grip on your self. Don't you realize that you've just given sin and Satan credit for the glory of God.
I guess it is beyond you. Because with out sin there would have been no need of the suffering of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Therefore no need of grace. There would have always been peace, safety and contentment in God's presence for ever from the beginning to infinity. We would have been born into innocence and stayed that way for ever. Sin doesn't deserve the credit you give it.
It was mans dominion
( Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. )
and man gave in to Satan by commiting sin and becomming Satan's slave. There by giving rule to Satan. Satan became the ruler of men's hearts. We are Satan's willing slaves until we are born again. Doesn't the world for the most part lay in his hands because of his evil influence over man?
MB
No, I believe God gave both man and angels free will. This is why Satan could rebel. Do you actually believe God wanted Satan to rebel against him? When I had children, I knew before they were born that they would sin, but I have never wanted them to sin EVER.
Not sure what you are trying to say here. No one is denying that God is not God, although the word "sovereign" does not appear in my Bible even once. However, the word "freewill" occurs 17 times.
James says that God never tempts any man. James says every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his OWN lust and enticed.
What you are doing is believeing a contradiction. If God decrees temptation, then he is the cause of that temptation. You can't say God decrees every event that happens and then say God is not responsible for every event that happens, that is an illogical impossibility. I do not understand how anyone can believe an illogical impossibility, but apparently many Calvinists and Reformed folks can. But I promise you are never going to convince anyone outside your Reformed circles that a contradition like this can be true, people are simply not going to fall for something so ridiculous. A child would know better.
Natural disasters are the natural result of a cursed world. Sin brought disharmony and disorder to the universe, this is what causes storms, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc... In Revelation it says the curse will be lifted, then there will no longer be natural calamities. I am not denying that in some instances the Lord causes natural calamities, the scriptures show so as in the case of Jonah. But that does not mean that all natural calamities are caused directly by God.
God decreed that Jesus would die for our sins, but he did not cause the Jews to crucify him. Again, James says God never tempts any man to sin.
I perfectly agree that God is sovereign, but not in the way you understand. I believe God can allow his creatures free will and still bring about his purposes.
This passage does not teach God will add grief to our life, it teaches the opposite. Why did you leave out verse 2?
Pro 3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
This passage is teaching that listening to God and trusting his word will add length of days, long life, and peace, not grief.
Now, I am not saying that all Christians do not suffer at times, we do. But we can know that if we trust God and follow his words our life will be far more successful and less painful than if we ignore his words.
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