Calvinism/origin of sin 2

[Luke2427]

That is a huge cop-our on your part. God and Christ, the example we are to use for our own life. So the analogy is applicable.

Christ, the MAN, is our example- not Eternal, Immutable, Omnipotent, Omniscient God. His ways are as high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth.

It is silly to say that God is like us. It is really sin. It undermines his transcendence.

Only because Calvinists refuse to carry their beliefs to their logical conclusion. I am not sure why this is true. It may be that they are afraid to do so. It may be for some other reason.

No. You just don't understand Calvinism yet. I am not sure why this is. It may be that you are afraid to do so. It may be for some other reason.

What kind of father allows his children to 'fall' to show his mercy. This is anathema to what we see in the life of Christ ... the greatest revelation of God that we will ever have.

It does not matter. No human father is God.

But far more than that- DO YOU DENY THAT GOD LET MAN FALL????????

God can use any event to gradually bring about good. God would much rather that there was no fall as that would mean he would have a face-to-face relationship with all of us ... as he did with Adam and Eve before the fall.

You made this up. Because of the fall and him redeeming us that face to face relationship will be much sweeter forever.

Do you really believe he would rather have things as they are now, with all the evil in the world rather than the type of relationship he had with Adam and Eve.

God wants things as they are though evil and suffering are against his disposition. He is willing that they be the way they are now so that they will ultimately be the way they will be as a result forever.

Why in the world would he predestine evil ... and don't tell me it is to show how good and merciful he is. There is no logic in that stance.

There is no mercy without sin. There is no display of Calvary type love where God condescends and takes upon him a human nature to suffer agony and shame and die for sinners- there is none of that without sin.

To us, it is evil for anyone to wish for a world where God could not display and receive praise for that kind of love.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Christ, the MAN, is our example- not Eternal, Immutable, Omnipotent, Omniscient God. His ways are as high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth.

Are you denying that Christ was God in human form on earth?

It is silly to say that God is like us. It is really sin. It undermines his transcendence.

Again, you seem to be denying that Christ was God on earth in human form.

That is not what Genesis says.
Gen. 3:5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

No. You just don't understand Calvinism yet. I am not sure why this is. It may be that you are afraid to do so. It may be for some other reason.

I believe, from your posts, I understand Calvinism much better that previously and you have convinced me that it is in great error.

It does not matter. No human father is God.

We call God our father. In the Lord's prayer it begins, Our father

But far more than that- DO YOU DENY THAT GOD LET MAN FALL????????

I do not deny that God let man fell and they fell because he loved them enough to give them freewill. He did not predestine them to fall. That is totally illogical.

Because of the fall and him redeeming us that face to face relationship will be much sweeter forever.

Everything would be far sweeter if there had been no fall and thus redemption was not necessary.

God wants things as they are though evil and suffering are against his disposition. He is willing that they be the way they are now so that they will ultimately be the way they will be as a result forever.

This is simply double-talk. Why would God predestine something that is against his disposition? That makes no sense and don't give me the drivel about it glorifying him.

There is no mercy without sin. There is no display of Calvary type love where God condescends and takes upon him a human nature to suffer agony and shame and die for sinners- there is none of that without sin.

And wouldn't it be wonderful if mercy is not needed, if Calvary had not been needed. Wouldn't it have been wonderful if our relationship with God had never been violated and needed to be re-established?

To us, it is evil for anyone to wish for a world where God could not display and receive praise for that kind of love.

Your mistaken belief. It is evil to claim God predestined all evil. This makes God the father of evil it is evil to believe that.

 

[DHK]

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36)

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:13)

Even if man was never created; even if sin never entered the world, God would still be God, and his attributes would still be the same. God never changes. "I am the Lord; I change not."
He does not need man nor sin to display His glory, His grace, His mercy, etc., for He intrinsically is all of those things. To say that He needed man to display any of those attributes is to make God dependent upon man.

God has need of nothing. He doesn't need man. He needs nothing. He is self-sufficient. His glory and His attributes will be displayed with or without man. He doesn't need man to display his love for He is love. He is incomprehensible. How can a finite man comprehend an infinite God. He cannot.
Therein lies your mistake.

 

[MB]

MB, it is you who have adopted this new, nameless, man-made theology which cannot be supported in Scripture and no one believed until 75 years ago.

That my friend just isn't true. My Father and Mother were brought up going to a Baptist Church that taught the Bible. There Fathers and Mothers were brought up in a Baptist Church. teaching the same Bible. My Father would have been 103 this year My Grand Father would have been 128 this year. I'm 66 and have been living by the scriptures for over 50 years. One thing for sure Luke you don't know what you're talking about.

No one is saying that God needs anything. That's silly.

Well at least until you came along.

But God WANTED to SHOW his greatness. He wanted to manifest and have a people experience his majesty and the wonder of his love and holiness.

Adam and Eve were experincing all that in a much greater way until they sinned. They walked with God in the Garden. They spoke directly to Him in person. You are kidding!

In order to show the DEPTHS of his love, Calvary type love, CALVARY was necessary.

Wrong Calvary was necessary because of sin

This is SO simple!

Without sin there is no Calvary.

Romans 5:8 "But God shows his love to us in that while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us."

How does God SHOW his love, MB?

I think you need to look for a good translation because that verse is a mistranslation.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Look up the word "commendeth" it means to recommend. It's an offer, not a show.

By dying for sinners.

It is nothing but stubbornness for you to keep arguing otherwise.

You do not have a case. You have no Scripture.

Your the one with out scripture to prove your point.

Will you believe the Word of God or rebel against it? That is where you and Crabtown are at this point.

What scripture that one above taken from a mans idea of what is said in the Bible. Or the one I post from the KJV.

Why is there such a thing as grace? Can you answer that?

I'll give you a hint. Look in Ephesians 2.

Grace in scripture is favor. God has always had grace. He created man because he favored the idea of doing so. He created Adam, and Adam was perfect and with out sin.
MB

 

[Luke2427]

Are you denying that Christ was God in human form on earth?

Do you understand what transcendence is?

NNE, Calvinist nor Arminian- NNE denies that God's ways are not our own.

We are to pursue being like Christ as Christ was in his human life. One is woefully ignorant of biblical theology if he thinks that God is like us. His ways are as high above our ways as the heavens are from the earth. He does not do things like we would do them. There is none like him in wisdom and power and purity. The very idea of the holiness of God is that he is like nothing or no one else.

Again, you seem to be denying that Christ was God on earth in human form.

No it doesn't. I do not know if you are just trying to be difficult at this point or if you are that backwards, but I said in the very post to which you are referring that we are to be like Christ the MAN.

God became a man. When he was a man he set forth an example for us to follow. I have been clear.

That is not what Genesis says.
Gen. 3:5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Yes, and by that lie that Satan told which you have just indicated you believe, your theology was born and the human race fell.

I believe, from your posts, I understand Calvinism much better that previously and you have convinced me that it is in great error.

Men love darkness rather than light.

We call God our father. In the Lord's prayer it begins, Our father

So??

I do not deny that God let man fell and they fell because he loved them enough to give them freewill. He did not predestine them to fall. That is totally illogical.

Defend this statement. How does giving us a free will indicate a great love?

Free will is what drives billions and billions and billions of souls into the roaring, relentless flames of eternal hell from whence there is never one second of relief or rest. MOST of the human race which develops this "free will" will burn forever and ever in hell. Perhaps as much as 95-99% of the human race which develops this free will will scream in agony throughout the endless ages of eternity.

Using what I consider to be your idiotic father-child analogy, what father leads his children to the edge of a pit of burning tar and says, "I love you enough to let you choose. You can play on the edge and take your chances or you can come with me"? And to be true to the analogy, if that father has lead 7 of his children to that burning tar pit, he knows that 6 of them are GOING to fall in by there own choice!

Yes, your theology you made up certainly makes God out to be SO MUCH KINDER!!

Everything would be far sweeter if there had been no fall and thus redemption was not necessary.

Blasphemy.

Furthermore, you think Heaven would be sweeter WITHOUT the songs of the redeemed and WITHOUT the Lamb receiving the praises of the redeemed forever and ever for his GRACE????\

Your ideas here are total nonsense!

This is simply double-talk. Why would God predestine something that is against his disposition? That makes no sense and don't give me the drivel about it glorifying him.

You don't think Christ GLORIFIED the Father when he went to Gethsemene and to the CROSS???????

Your theology is based on utter MADNESS.

It is ten thousand times worse than Arminianism.

No intelligent person denies that God receives great glory by the eradication of sin and the saving of sinners and the destruction of the wicked.

Have you ever even READ the Bible at all????

And wouldn't it be wonderful if mercy is not needed, if Calvary had not been needed. Wouldn't it have been wonderful if our relationship with God had never been violated and needed to be re-established?

A trillion times no.

Calvary was not an afterthought in the mind of God when he built the universe. It was his PLAN the whole time. Calvary is WHY God buit the universe.

To take the single greatest event in history and that event whereby the character of God is most clearly revealed and say that the universe would have been better if it had never happened is utter blasphemy.

 

[Luke2427]

That my friend just isn't true. My Father and Mother were brought up going to a Baptist Church that taught the Bible. There Fathers and Mothers were brought up in a Baptist Church. teaching the same Bible. My Father would have been 103 this year My Grand Father would have been 128 this year. I'm 66 and have been living by the scriptures for over 50 years. One thing for sure Luke you don't know what you're talking about.

Well at least until you came along.



Adam and Eve were experincing all that in a much greater way until they sinned. They walked with God in the Garden. They spoke directly to Him in person. You are kidding!



Wrong Calvary was necessary because of sin


I think you need to look for a good translation because that verse is a mistranslation.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Look up the word "commendeth" it means to recommend. It's an offer, not a show.


Your the one with out scripture to prove your point.



What scripture that one above taken from a mans idea of what is said in the Bible. Or the one I post from the KJV.



Grace in scripture is favor. God has always had grace. He created man because he favored the idea of doing so. He created Adam, and Adam was perfect and with out sin.
MB

MB, I'll respond to this if you can get Skandelon to sign off on your post here.

Skandelon is vehemently opposed to Calvinism and is intelligent- if you can get him to say that this post is dead on and makes all good arguments, I will respond to it.

The reason is because, imo, it is SO backwards that I do not think that, other than Winman, Snow, and maybe Crabtown, you can FIND anyone who agrees with much of what is in this post.

 

[Luke2427]

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36)

And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:13)

Even if man was never created; even if sin never entered the world, God would still be God, and his attributes would still be the same. God never changes. "I am the Lord; I change not."
He does not need man nor sin to display His glory, His grace, His mercy, etc., for He intrinsically is all of those things. To say that He needed man to display any of those attributes is to make God dependent upon man.

God has need of nothing. He doesn't need man. He needs nothing. He is self-sufficient. His glory and His attributes will be displayed with or without man. He doesn't need man to display his love for He is love. He is incomprehensible. How can a finite man comprehend an infinite God. He cannot.
Therein lies your mistake.

No one has argued that God changes.

This whole post is straw man.

 

[DHK]

No one has argued that God changes.

This whole post is straw man.

Not at all. Here is a quote from you:

But God WANTED to SHOW his greatness. He wanted to manifest and have a people experience his majesty and the wonder of his love and holiness.

Man, and his consequent sin, was created to show his greatness, you say.
Thus God needed man, and his sin.

This makes God dependent upon man instead of the other way around as the Bible teaches. God doesn't change. He doesn't need man to show his greatness. His greatness is shown with or without man.

 

[Luke2427]

Not at all. Here is a quote from you:

Man, and his consequent sin, was created to show his greatness, you say.
Thus God needed man, and his sin.

This makes God dependent upon man instead of the other way around as the Bible teaches. God doesn't change. He doesn't need man to show his greatness. His greatness is shown with or without man.

That God needs things in order to accomplish things has nothing at all to do with his immutable, perfect nature.

If God wants to save sinners, God NEEDS sinners to save.



It is pure foolishness to argue otherwise.

 

[Fred's Wife]

If God wants to save sinners, God NEEDS sinners to save..

Sounds like circular reasoning to me. Basically, what you are saying is that God is the cause of sin so man can sin in order for God to make them sinners in order that He has sinners to save?

 

[Luke2427]

Sounds like circular reasoning to me. Basically, what you are saying is that God is the cause of sin so man can sin in order for God to make them sinners in order that He has sinners to save?

No, it is nothing like that.

I said nothing of the sort. Show the link between what I said and this stuff you are trying to say.

 

[Luke2427]

Furthermore, your illustration is not circular; it is linear.

Circular would mean...

Never mind...

You either get it or you don't.

 

[psalms109:31]

Knowledge

The tree was knowledge of good and evil. So we have knowledge of good and evil, so the knowledge of good wasn't taken from us.

So wouldn't you say through the words of Jesus He does place before us life and death, not just one direction. I see throughout scripture He gives us a choice through His word. To not eat to eat and the consequences. Then follow my commandments and live or not and die. Trust in my Son and be saved or not and be condemned. It is God nature to place before man life or death and if we live or die it is because of God, because of the consequences He has placed before us with our choice. I am saved by the choice of God, it was His word that said those who believe in my Son will be saved. So in the end it is His choice who will be saved or condemned, because it is His choice to save those who trust in His Son according to His word.

A unrepresentative criminal will always blame the Law,and the maker of them, because it is them who placed the consequences before them that gave them the sentence, but it was their choice to break the Law. Just like a repentant and a forgiven criminal will also blame the judge too because it is them that committed the crime and the judges choice to forgive them of it. What unforgiven criminal who repented and trusted in the word of the Judge and was save from the penalty of death the sentance for their crime would say they saved themselves?

There was two criminals on the cross besides Jesus which one are you?

 

[DHK]

That God needs things in order to accomplish things has nothing at all to do with his immutable, perfect nature.

If God wants to save sinners, God NEEDS sinners to save.

You are presuming to know what God wants. How can you put yourself in the place of God and know what He desires.

The desires of God are made known in His Word.

[God] who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) [Darby]

We would not know that apart from His revelation to us.

Thus Paul writes:
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36)

 

[Luke2427]

You are presuming to know what God wants. How can you put yourself in the place of God and know what He desires.

The desires of God are made known in His Word.

[God] who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) [Darby]

We would not know that apart from His revelation to us.

Thus Paul writes:
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36)

And????

What's your point?

BTW, am I to take from this that you abandon the silly notion that God doesn't need anything if he wishes to accomplish anything?

God's word tells us why he does what he does. He does things for his glory. Do you deny it?

 

[DHK]

And????

What's your point?

BTW, am I to take from this that you abandon the silly notion that God doesn't need anything if he wishes to accomplish anything?

God's word tells us why he does what he does. He does things for his glory. Do you deny it?

Hindsight is better than foresight. I do not base my theology on what God did, but rather on who God is; His character--the entire study of theology proper.

The fact that God DID create man and that man DID sin, and in the end God WAS glorified, does not change WHO God is. You attribute sin to God, and wrongly so. God is not the author of sin, and did not need the presence of sin for his love & glory to be manifested. That love and glory would be manifested without man and without sin.

 

[Luke2427]

Hindsight is better than foresight. I do not base my theology on what God did, but rather on who God is; His character--the entire study of theology proper.

The fact that God DID create man and that man DID sin, and in the end God WAS glorified, does not change WHO God is. You attribute sin to God, and wrongly so. God is not the author of sin, and did not need the presence of sin for his love & glory to be manifested. That love and glory would be manifested without man and without sin.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Christ, the MAN, is our example- not Eternal, Immutable, Omnipotent, Omniscient God. His ways are as high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth.

It is silly to say that God is like us. It is really sin. It undermines his transcendence.

I see you are admitting that you do not believe Christ was God on earth in physical form.

No. You just don't understand Calvinism yet. I am not sure why this is. It may be that you are afraid to do so. It may be for some other reason.

I see Calvinism much more clearly now. What I did not know before was how dark the theology is. I knew Calvin's personal life was very dark.

It does not matter. No human father is God.

No one said that a human father is God. Do we not day when talking of the trinity, God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit. So how can you say God is not our spiritual father?

But far more than that- DO YOU DENY THAT GOD LET MAN FALL????????

Of course there was a fall and I have talked about it. The fall came about because of Adam and Eve's freewill choice to sin.

You made this up. Because of the fall and him redeeming us that face to face relationship will be much sweeter forever.

Seems you are saying a broken relationship is better than one that was never broken. I hope you do not feel that way about your relationship with your wife ... "Gee honey, it would be better if we broke this relationship so we could patch it up later. Wouldn't it be great then?"

God wants things as they are though evil and suffering are against his disposition. He is willing that they be the way they are now so that they will ultimately be the way they will be as a result forever.

Now you are, finally, admitting that you believe God is evil. A person cannot approve of murder and at the same time be pure in their thoughts of goodwill toward mankind.

There is no mercy without sin. There is no display of Calvary type love where God condescends and takes upon him a human nature to suffer agony and shame and die for sinners- there is none of that without sin.

And it would be wonderful if mercy had never been needed. You are right, there would be none of that would be wonderful. Calvary became necessary as a step in God reestablishing his relationship with us that we humans broke through our sins that were done using our freewill.

To us, it is evil for anyone to wish for a world where God could not display and receive praise for that kind of love.

And again you are making out God to be an egotistical being who would rather have us suffer so we can praise him for being kind even though he caused the evil to happen to us through the false Calvinist beliefs.

You don't think Christ GLORIFIED the Father when he went to Gethsemene and to the CROSS???????

Your theology is based on utter MADNESS.

It is ten thousand times worse than Arminianism.

No intelligent person denies that God receives great glory by the eradication of sin and the saving of sinners and the destruction of the wicked.

Have you ever even READ the Bible at all????

And I see that now you must be starting to see the error of your beliefs, but are afraid to confront them as you have started attempts at insults.

 

[psalms109:31]

Lam 3:33 for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men.

Eze 33:11
Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Hbr 12:9
Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

 

[Skandelon]

But God WANTED to SHOW his greatness. He wanted to manifest and have a people experience his majesty and the wonder of his love and holiness.

In order to show the DEPTHS of his love, Calvary type love, CALVARY was necessary.

Why? Couldn't he have just effectually drawn them to understand these things and love him unconditionally?

I agree with your statement, but I don't see how it supports your view since in your view God is the one who determines everything, including what people understand from an experience of God's manifestations of love.

This is SO simple!

Without sin there is no Calvary.

Agreed, but for God to determine the sin in order to determine Calvary is non-sense and blatantly unbiblical. Now, if you would qualify your statements by saying something like, God permissively decreed sins existence (allowed sin to exist though he could have stopped it) so as to actively decree its complete eradication and manifest His goodness...then you might have theology worthy of consideration.

I

t is nothing but stubbornness for you to keep arguing otherwise.

That is not consistent with your theology. God's determinative decree is keeping them from arguing otherwise.