Calvinism/origin of sin 2

[DHK]

thanks for your reply.
So then Adam sinning is part of the plan of God, otherwise there is no need of a Savior. Saying that God decreed it to happen doesn't equal God forcing Adam to sin.

In my mind it is. If God decreed it, then Adam had no choice.
If God allowed it, then Adam had a choice.
Otherwise you have left no room for a difference between decreed and allowed. They mean the same to you, but they are not. They have different meanings.

 

[Amy.G]

thanks for your reply.
So then Adam sinning is part of the plan of God, otherwise there is no need of a Savior. Saying that God decreed it to happen doesn't equal God forcing Adam to sin.

How is it different? Aren't all God's decrees carried out with certainty? Is there any decree that will not come to pass?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And when you are faced with a glaring contradiction, such as saying God determines every event that happens, yet is not the author of sin, and saying this is a great mystery is not an answer either. It is simply an evasion to avoid the inevitable and logical conclusion of your belief. The only one you are fooling is yourself.

You go on and on, mocking and insulting those who do not agree with you, and what do you really have? NOTHING. You can't even explain your own beliefs, they are a cloudy, nebulous mystery.

Yes, you can't even explain what you believe, and yet are dogmatic, insisting you must be correct, and anyone who disagrees must be either a heretic or an uneducated idiot. Correct about what? You don't even understand your own belief, it is a mystery to you!!

Saying something is a mystery is the biggest EVASION and non-answer ever. You've got NOTHING.

you sound a mite testy there winnie......why so hostile?

 

[Winman]

you sound a mite testy there winnie......why so hostile?

I didn't mean to sound testy. I was simply saying that appealing to mystery to explain how God could decree every event that ever takes place, and yet not be the author of sin is not an answer. In fact, it is an illogical contradiction and impossibility.

What is so ironic about this is that Calvinism constantly argues that it is logical and consistent, yet in the end it must appeal to the illogical to work.

It is not a mystery. Saying God decrees every event and yet is not the author of sin is an obvious contradiction. It cannot possibly be true.

If God indeed decrees every single event that ever happens then he is indeed the author of sin. And if I believed this, this is what I would preach. I would not appeal to mystery. The fact that Calvinists appeal to mystery shows that deep down they have serious issues with their own beliefs. It does not seem just or right to them, and so they try to explain it away as a mystery.

It reminds me of pro-abortionists who often say they would never have an abortion themselves, but they do not want to prevent others from having an abortion. Why wouldn't they have an abortion themselves? If there is nothing wrong with it, why not? So, they give themselves away, they reveal that in their heart they know it is a wicked sin.

And Calvinists do the same thing when they appeal to mystery to explain how God determines every event and yet is not the author of sin. They know deep in their heart that something is seriously wrong with this belief, they know if God does determine every event then he is indeed evil. But they also know that is blasphemy. What to do? How do you maintain your doctrine in the face of such a serious charge against God? How do you reconcile an obvious contradiction of logic?

Simple, you explain it away as a mystery. This is simply an evasion of confessing the truth. And it is not an answer.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I didn't mean to sound testy. I was simply saying that appealing to mystery to explain how God could decree every event that ever takes place, and yet not be the author of sin is not an answer. In fact, it is an illogical contradiction and impossibility.

What is so ironic about this is that Calvinism constantly argues that it is logical and consistent, yet in the end it must appeal to the illogical to work.

It is not a mystery. Saying God decrees every event and yet is not the author of sin is an obvious contradiction. It cannot possibly be true.

If God indeed decrees every single event that ever happens then he is indeed the author of sin. And if I believed this, this is what I would preach. I would not appeal to mystery. The fact that Calvinists appeal to mystery shows that deep down they have serious issues with their own beliefs. It does not seem just or right to them, and so they try to explain it away as a mystery.

It reminds me of pro-abortionists who often say they would never have an abortion themselves, but they do not want to prevent others from having an abortion. Why wouldn't they have an abortion themselves? If there is nothing wrong with it, why not? So, they give themselves away, they reveal that in their heart they know it is a wicked sin.

And Calvinists do the same thing when they appeal to mystery to explain how God determines every event and yet is not the author of sin. They know deep in their heart that something is seriously wrong with this belief, they know if God does determine every event then he is indeed evil. But they also know that is blasphemy. What to do? How do you maintain your doctrine in the face of such a serious charge against God? How do you reconcile an obvious contradiction of logic?

Simple, you explain it away as a mystery. This is simply an evasion of confessing the truth. And it is not an answer.

OK explain the Trinity to me.

 

[Winman]

OK explain the Trinity to me.

Well, the best way I can explain the trinity is water. Water comes in three forms, a solid (ice), a liquid (water), and a gas (water vapor or steam), yet it is H2O water.

God comes in three forms, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, yet they are one.

We ourselves are a trinity, we are body, soul, and spirit. We can distinguish between the three, we know our body is our outward shell, it is how we contact the physical world through our physical senses. Our soul is our self consciousness, it is our person. Our spirit is our God consciousness, it is that part of us that connects to the spiritual realm. Our soul is the medium between our body and our spirit and connects to both. Our soul is affected by both our physical body and our spirit.

But this is getting off subject. That God does not decree every single event that occurs and is not the author of sin is clearly shown in the scriptures.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

In the book of Jeremiah, the Jews were sacrificing their children to idols, burning them to death. This was a horrible abomination. And three times God made it clear he had nothing whatsoever to do with this. He never commanded it, he never spoke it, it did not come into his mind, it did not come into his heart, and he did not cause this sin.

That is pretty plain. So, those who teach that God decrees all things that take place are in error. God did not decree or command this horrible sin. It was not his idea, it did not come into his mind or heart, and he did not cause it.

But I have yet to see one Calvinist respond to these verses, they simply ignore them. Why? Because they easily refute what Calvinists believe.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, the best way I can explain the trinity is water. Water comes in three forms, a solid (ice), a liquid (water), and a gas (water vapor or steam), yet it is H2O water.

God comes in three forms, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, yet they are one.

We ourselves are a trinity, we are body, soul, and spirit. We can distinguish between the three, we know our body is our outward shell, it is how we contact the physical world through our physical senses. Our soul is our self consciousness, it is our person. Our spirit is our God consciousness, it is that part of us that connects to the spiritual realm. Our soul is the medium between our body and our spirit and connects to both. Our soul is affected by both our physical body and our spirit.

But this is getting off subject. That God does not decree every single event that occurs and is not the author of sin is clearly shown in the scriptures.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

In the book of Jeremiah, the Jews were sacrificing their children to idols, burning them to death. This was a horrible abomination. And three times God made it clear he had nothing whatsoever to do with this. He never commanded it, he never spoke it, it did not come into his mind, it did not come into his heart, and he did not cause this sin.

That is pretty plain. So, those who teach that God decrees all things that take place are in error. God did not decree or command this horrible sin. It was not his idea, it did not come into his mind or heart, and he did not cause it.

But I have yet to see one Calvinist respond to these verses, they simply ignore them. Why? Because they easily refute what Calvinists believe.

Gee, I guess I will have to jettison everything I believe to satisfy your rants.....not!:smilewinkgrin:

You & I are as far away as two people can be in beliefs. to date neither you, Scandalon or anyone in your camp has provided one compelling argument against Orthodox Beliefs that I could agree with....not one. I don't get why you even continue to try as its pointless. But I want you to keep trying....Its very entertaining & I'm learning hyperbole from Robert....at least he does it for that.....perhaps a little vitriol thrown in for good measure.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Rippon]

Well, the best way I can explain the trinity is water. Water comes in three forms, a solid (ice), a liquid (water), and a gas (water vapor or steam), yet it is H2O water.

Don't even try to do analogies when it comes to something as majestic as the Trinity Winman. It is pointless. The Creed of Chalcedon didn't stoop so low. They stuck to biblical terminology whenever possible.And when they didn't use Bible words they were faithful to the intent of Scripture without resorting to mere analogies.

Analogies are fine when we use the ones Jesus and Paul used --but don't go past that point.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don't even try to do analogies when it comes to something as majestic as the Trinity Winman. It is pointless. The Creed of Chalcedon didn't stoop so low. They stuck to biblical terminology whenever possible.And when they didn't use Bible words they were faithful to the intent of Scripture without resorting to mere analogies.

Analogies are fine when we use the ones Jesus and Paul used --but don't go past that point.

Rippon....maybe he is a high school science teacher....consider the analogy.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Don't even try to do analogies when it comes to something as majestic as the Trinity Winman. It is pointless. The Creed of Chalcedon didn't stoop so low. They stuck to biblical terminology whenever possible.And when they didn't use Bible words they were faithful to the intent of Scripture without resorting to mere analogies.

Analogies are fine when we use the ones Jesus and Paul used --but don't go past that point.

Fine.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And you know, using swelling eloquent words like "majestic" does not make you more spiritual or even correct theologically. I've noticed that Calvinists are enamoured with using words like this.

2 Pet 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

I am not saying this about you personally, but the scriptures warn of false teachers who speak great swelling words, they are eloquent.

Paul spoke of this also

1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

So, just to let you know, when you Calvinists post these great statements by men who are indeed eloquent, I am not impressed. Maybe some are, but I am not one of them.

 

[Rippon]

Fine.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

You quoted an addition to the Word of God. 1 John 5:7,8 in the NIV is:"For there are three that testify:the Spirit,the water and the blood.

And you know, using swelling eloquent words like "majestic" does not make you more spiritual or even correct theologically. I've noticed that Calvinists are enamoured with using words like this.

Okay,used words of three syllables is off-limits with you. But majesty is okay since the KJV uses it in 1 Peter 1:16 when it speaks of being eyewitneses of his majesty. You have to make up your mind.

2 Pet 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

I am not saying this about you personally, but the scriptures warn of false teachers who speak great swelling words, they are eloquent.

Paul spoke of this also

1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

So, just to let you know, when you Calvinists post these great statements by men who are indeed eloquent, I am not impressed. Maybe some are, but I am not one of them.

I certainly appreciate the Scripture citations --but what in the world are you coming up with? I used the word "majestic" and it turned you off so much that you went into hyper-drive. LOL!

 

[Winman]

You quoted an addition to the Word of God. 1 John 5:7,8 in the NIV is:"For there are three that testify:the Spirit,the water and the blood.

I quoted 1 John 5:7 from the KJB.

Okay,used words of three syllables is off-limits with you. But majesty is okay since the KJV uses it in 1 Peter 1:16 when it speaks of being eyewitneses of his majesty. You have to make up your mind.

It is not the same, you guys sound corny when you use eloquent language, it is obvious it is done to impress people you are spiritually superior. It is similar to the Pharisees who stopped and prayed openly in the streets to be seen by men. CORNY.

I certainly appreciate the Scripture citations --but what in the world are you coming up with? I used the word "majestic" and it turned you off so much that you went into hyper-drive. LOL!

I probably over reacted, but I get tired of Calvinists who often answer with great swelling words. Pay attention and you will see for yourself.

I am actually more impressed with folks who can express great thoughts in simple words. Read some Will Rogers and you will understand. He made more sense with simple language than these fellows with the beards and pipes who have an alphabet of letters after their name. Not saying I agree with him, just far more impressed with his intelligence than these "doctors".

 

[Rippon]

I quoted 1 John 5:7 from the KJB.

I realize that. It's just that words are added in that passage that weren't in the original.

It is not the same, you guys sound corny when you use eloquent language, it is obvious it is done to impress people you are spiritually superior. It is similar to the Pharisees who stopped and prayed openly in the streets to be seen by men. CORNY.



I probably over reacted, but I get tired of Calvinists who often answer with great swelling words. Pay attention and you will see for yourself.

I am actually more impressed with folks who can express great thoughts in simple words. Read some Will Rogers and you will understand. He made more sense with simple language than these fellows with the beards and pipes who have an alphabet of letters after their name. Not saying I agree with him, just far more impressed with his intelligence than these "doctors".

I can't stop laughing. I can't believe how silly you are Winman. One word of three syllables set you off on a rant. Unbelievable. I can't imagine how much more you would have reacted if I had used a string of words you find objectionable in that you would consider them eloquent.Get a grip guy.

 

[jbh28]

In my mind it is. If God decreed it, then Adam had no choice.
If God allowed it, then Adam had a choice.
Otherwise you have left no room for a difference between decreed and allowed. They mean the same to you, but they are not. They have different meanings.

So in your mind if God decrees something, then the only way for it to happen is for God to FORCE it to happen. Any proof of that? Did God force Jesus against his will to go to the cross? Of course not! But it was decreed that Jesus would die on the cross.

 

[Winman]

I realize that. It's just that words are added in that passage that weren't in the original.




I can't stop laughing. I can't believe how silly you are Winman. One word of three syllables set you off on a rant. Unbelievable. I can't imagine how much more you would have reacted if I had used a string of words you find objectionable in that you would consider them eloquent.Get a grip guy.

You don't sound happy, especially that "Get a grip guy " line.

Here is one of Will Rogers quotes;

"A statement is hurtful in proportion to it's truthfulness"

 

[Winman]

So in your mind if God decrees something, then the only way for it to happen is for God to FORCE it to happen. Any proof of that? Did God force Jesus against his will to go to the cross? Of course not! But it was decreed that Jesus would die on the cross.

Actually, if Calvinism is true, all men are performing God's will at all times. If everything an unregenerate man does is sin, and he cannot do otherwise, then the logical conclusion is this is exactly what God wills, otherwise God would regenerate him. For unless God regenerates him, it is impossible that he do otherwise than sin.

So, why does God send men to hell for being sinners? It is his will that they are sinners, otherwise he would regenerate them. When they sin, they are doing exactly what God wills they should do.

Imagine that, God sending men to hell for performing his will!

 

[DHK]

So in your mind if God decrees something, then the only way for it to happen is for God to FORCE it to happen. Any proof of that? Did God force Jesus against his will to go to the cross? Of course not! But it was decreed that Jesus would die on the cross.

It never changes. Whenever I have this discussion the Calvinist must use the example of Christ. They have no choice. Does it not occur to them that in effect Christ had no choice. Christ could not sin. He was sinless. He came to do the will of His Father. It was decreed that He would go to the cross. It was prophesied hundreds of times over. It was set in motion before the world was ever created. This example isn't an example. It is self-defeating. MY position still stands.

 

[jbh28]

Actually, if Calvinism is true, all men are performing God's will at all times. If everything an unregenerate man does is sin, and he cannot do otherwise, then the logical conclusion is this is exactly what God wills, otherwise God would regenerate him. For unless God regenerates him, it is impossible that he do otherwise than sin.

So, why does God send men to hell for being sinners? It is his will that they are sinners, otherwise he would regenerate them. When they sin, they are doing exactly what God wills they should do.

Imagine that, God sending men to hell for performing his will!

God doesn't want them to sin.
Why don't you start discussing the topic instead of always trying to pretend you know what "calvinism" is.

 

[jbh28]

It never changes. Whenever I have this discussion the Calvinist must use the example of Christ. They have no choice. Does it not occur to them that in effect Christ had no choice. Christ could not sin. He was sinless. He came to do the will of His Father. It was decreed that He would go to the cross. It was prophesied hundreds of times over. It was set in motion before the world was ever created. This example isn't an example. It is self-defeating. MY position still stands.

You position isn't based on anything but "your understanding" as you admitted.
It's a perfect example. Christ willingly went to the cross, yet it was ordained before the foundation of the world that he should go. Christ did have a choice. He could have refused, but He didn't.

Usually, the "my position still stands" type of comments show that you had no refute. All you did is just say it doesn't work, but in fact it's a perfect example. What you guys keep forgetting about is that God is in control. That doesn't mean he forces people to do things. Saying that you don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true. I don't understand the trinity or eternity or even the fullness God(nobody understands God completely), but that doesn't make them untrue. How human will(which we all have one and all make choices) and God sovereignty work together is a mystery. We don't understand it.

what if the Jews had not crucified Christ? Did God "force" them to crucify Christ? No. But it was ordained before the foundation of the world that Christ would die on the cross.

what if Adam had not sinned? Did god force Adam to sin? No, but it was ordained that he would.

The whole world is planned out. God is in control of it. Does he force people to sin? No!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does He want people to sin? No!!!!!!!!!!! Is it ordained that people will sin? YES! Does God want to save people from their sin? YES!!!! Does God want all me to repent? YES!!!!!! Does God force anyone to repent? NO!!!!!!!!

 

[DHK]

You position isn't based on anything but "your understanding" as you admitted.

And you want me to say....
My understanding of the Bible is better than yours...

It's a perfect example. Christ willingly went to the cross, yet it was ordained before the foundation of the world that he should go. Christ did have a choice. He could have refused, but He didn't.

Christ was and is God. God cannot sin. Christ promised to go to the Cross. To not go would be deceptive, lying to His disciples, and rebelling against the Father. God cannot do that which is against His own nature. Thus you use Christ as an example, for the outcome was already predicted in prophesy.

But the outcome of all the immoral acts of the Catholic priests, for example, were not predicted in Scripture, and thus not predetermined, or decreed by God. These RCC monsters chose of their own free will to sexually abuse others. The author of their sin was not God, nor was it decreed by God. They chose it, not God.

Usually, the "my position still stands" type of comments show that you had no refute. All you did is just say it doesn't work, but in fact it's a perfect example. What you guys keep forgetting about is that God is in control.

God is always in control. Nothing escapes his attention. Nothing happens without his permission. I never suggested otherwise.

That doesn't mean he forces people to do things.

He either decrees or allows. You can't have it both ways.
In the book of Job he ALLOWED Satan to inflict pain on Job. It was not decreed. He gave permission to Satan.

Saying that you don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't true. I don't understand the trinity or eternity or even the fullness God(nobody understands God completely), but that doesn't make them untrue. How human will(which we all have one and all make choices) and God sovereignty work together is a mystery. We don't understand it.

It was Paul that said that God was incomprehensible.
David said his ways are past finding out.
He said such knowledge is too high for me; I cannot attain it.

But you say: "It doesn't mean it isn't true." What isn't true? Calvinism??
David and Paul never knew of Calvinism!! :laugh::laugh:

what if the Jews had not crucified Christ? Did God "force" them to crucify Christ? No. But it was ordained before the foundation of the world that Christ would die on the cross.

You are talking of an event here. You must refer to this event to try to get your point across don't you.
You can't prove your point without that one event. Did God ordain the terrorists of 9/11 to fly those planes in the WTC?? Was that decreed/ordained of God? Try some harder questions?
Is rape ordained of God?

what if Adam had not sinned? Did god force Adam to sin? No, but it was ordained that he would.

What if Adam had not sinned? What would the world be like if he had not sinned? You say it was ordained; I don't.

The whole world is planned out. God is in control of it.

I never suggested that God is not in control.
God was still in control when he gave Satan permission to afflict Job. The affliction was not decreed; but permitted. There is a big difference there.

Does he force people to sin? No!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does He want people to sin? No!!!!!!!!!!! Is it ordained that people will sin? YES!

Your logic doesn't follow does it. If your logic followed, then the last answer would also be no. It is not ordained that people sin. God allows that men choose to sin. He doesn't ordain it.

Does God want to save people from their sin? YES!!!! Does God want all me to repent? YES!!!!!! Does God force anyone to repent? NO!!!!!!!!

And the answer is correct because man has a free will to choose whether or not to repent.