Calvinism presents Absurdity

[Van]

I have explained my view on this clearly at least three times. I illustrated with the maze example.

God has decreed the existence of sin through moral beings accountable for that sin and all of its consequences by his permissive will. This is not the will of His good pleasure but the will of permission whereby he controls and contain sin and its consequences within the boundaries of HIs will so that it works for the ultimate good of His people and for His glory. (Psa. 76:10)

Not true. According to the WCF God has decreed everything such that it will happen, because God foreknows it, i.e. the future. There is no room for permissive will, where God allows His creation to exercise autonomous choices.

All righteousness is decreed by His will of good pleasure (Isa. 46:10-11).

Yet another bogus assertion. What Isaiah 46:01-11 says is God declares the end from the beginning, so whatever God has declared will happen, God will make happen. "All righteousness" is not even mentioned. Thus if God planned for men to make autonomous choices, God will create people able to make autonomous choices, and will allow autonomous choices rather than predestined choices.

Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

God did know that Israel would be obstinate. This in no way supports God has predestined each and every act of obstinacy. Fallen people sin.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins

Again, another verse having nothing to do with the bogus assertion. Here we see that the Old Testament prophets taught of the Messiah, and that anyone who believes in Christ will receive forgiveness of sins.

So yet again, Calvinists provide verses that show God predestines some things, that He knows what He will bring about, and that His redemption plan included people autonomously choosing to believe in Christ.

So by the numbers:

1) Biblicist denies the Calvinism presented in the WCF in that he claims God did not decree whatsoever comes to pass, yet the WCF says God did decree what He then foreknows, and thus disavows the concept of God having a permissive will where He allows others to make autonomous choices.

2) None of the verses cited supports exhaustive determinism, yet Calvinism asserts those verses teach exhaustive determinism. LOL

 

[saturneptune]

Moderators, please move this thread to the CA forum.

 

[InTheLight]

2) None of the verses cited supports exhaustive determinism, yet Calvinism asserts those verses teach exhaustive determinism. LOL

It's interesting that their "proof texts" are usually the same two or three verses whereas dozens of verses refuting them can be found throughout the Bible. Also, I would be hesitant to build doctrine on verses found in Psalms.

 

[Van]

Moderators, please move this thread to the CA forum.

Moderatiors, please remove post #2 as being off topic.

 

[saturneptune]

Moderatiors, please remove post #2 as being off topic.

There is nothing special about you. Everyone was told to start the nonsense Calvin-free will threads in the new section. Can you read, and if so, do you abide by the rules?

 

[DrJamesAch]

There is nothing special about you. Everyone was told to start the nonsense Calvin-free will threads in the new section. Can you read, and if so, do you abide by the rules?

No not everyone, only Non Calvinist are required to post in that forum, Calvinist postings can post whereever they want. http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86705 Post 6 and 7. I was given a warning about starting threads involving Calvinism at the same time Doc responded to that thread listed. Mine was moved, his wasn't, nor have the plethora of threads started by Biblicist that are clearly Calvinist, and against the Non Calvinist views.

 

[saturneptune]

No not everyone, only Non Calvinist are required to post in that forum, Calvinist postings can post whereever they want. http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86705 Post 6 and 7. I was given a warning about starting threads involving Calvinism at the same time Doc responded to that thread listed. Mine was moved, his wasn't, nor have the plethora of threads started by Biblicist that are clearly Calvinist, and against the Non Calvinist views.

On that point I agree. There should be equal enforcement regardless of ones side on an issue.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Moderators, please move this thread to the CA forum.

if Arminians do not value the Sovereignty of God, why do you think they should follow rules on BB on where to post ?:wavey:

 

[The Biblicist]

- repeated post

 

[The Biblicist]

Not true. According to the WCF God has decreed everything such that it will happen, because God foreknows it, i.e. the future. There is no room for permissive will, where God allows His creation to exercise autonomous choices.

Yet another bogus assertion. What Isaiah 46:01-11 says is God declares the end from the beginning, so whatever God has declared will happen, God will make happen. "All righteousness" is not even mentioned. Thus if God planned for men to make autonomous choices, God will create people able to make autonomous choices, and will allow autonomous choices rather than predestined choices.

God did know that Israel would be obstinate. This in no way supports God has predestined each and every act of obstinacy. Fallen people sin.

Again, another verse having nothing to do with the bogus assertion. Here we see that the Old Testament prophets taught of the Messiah, and that anyone who believes in Christ will receive forgiveness of sins.

So yet again, Calvinists provide verses that show God predestines some things, that He knows what He will bring about, and that His redemption plan included people autonomously choosing to believe in Christ.

So by the numbers:

1) Biblicist denies the Calvinism presented in the WCF in that he claims God did not decree whatsoever comes to pass, yet the WCF says God did decree what He then foreknows, and thus disavows the concept of God having a permissive will where He allows others to make autonomous choices.

2) None of the verses cited supports exhaustive determinism, yet Calvinism asserts those verses teach exhaustive determinism. LOL

Why not try to present what I said fairly? I never denied God has decreed whatsoever comes to pass. I simply expounded the way he did it. Permissive will (in regard to sin and its consequences) versus will of good pleasure.

You also ignore that Isaiah 46:10-11 includes His will of good pleasure as verse 10 explicitly states "I will do all my pleasure" - v. 10b

You have so much hatred within you that you cannot even deal fairly with those who oppose your position.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

if Arminians do not value the Sovereignty of God, why do you think they should follow rules on BB on where to post ?:wavey:

Ahhuh...& what benefit is it to us to even argue with them?:BangHead:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You have so much hatred within you that you cannot even deal fairly with those who oppose your position.

Oh Good Lord...you finally noticed:applause::laugh:

 

[DrJamesAch]

if Arminians do not value the Sovereignty of God, why do you think they should follow rules on BB on where to post ?:wavey:

What a stupid comment.

So does that mean that Calvinists who do not follow the rules on the BB do not value the sovereignty of God?

 

[The Archangel]

Not true. According to the WCF God has decreed everything such that it will happen, because God foreknows it, i.e. the future. There is no room for permissive will, where God allows His creation to exercise autonomous choices.

Yet another bogus assertion. What Isaiah 46:01-11 says is God declares the end from the beginning, so whatever God has declared will happen, God will make happen. "All righteousness" is not even mentioned. Thus if God planned for men to make autonomous choices, God will create people able to make autonomous choices, and will allow autonomous choices rather than predestined choices.

God did know that Israel would be obstinate. This in no way supports God has predestined each and every act of obstinacy. Fallen people sin.

Again, another verse having nothing to do with the bogus assertion. Here we see that the Old Testament prophets taught of the Messiah, and that anyone who believes in Christ will receive forgiveness of sins.

So yet again, Calvinists provide verses that show God predestines some things, that He knows what He will bring about, and that His redemption plan included people autonomously choosing to believe in Christ.

So by the numbers:

1) Biblicist denies the Calvinism presented in the WCF in that he claims God did not decree whatsoever comes to pass, yet the WCF says God did decree what He then foreknows, and thus disavows the concept of God having a permissive will where He allows others to make autonomous choices.

2) None of the verses cited supports exhaustive determinism, yet Calvinism asserts those verses teach exhaustive determinism. LOL

The only absurdity here is your butchering of the Westminster Confession (which I do not hold to, by the way).

Article 3 is as follows:

CHAPTER III.

Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

Taken from: http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html (accessed 25 July 2013)

If you'll notice, the word is "ordain." The ordaining of things is not the same as the determination of things. Ordination takes the free will of man into account; determination does not.

Of course, I have no expectation that you'll listen, for you never do. I have no expectation that you'll rightly articulate our position, for you never do. I have no expectation of any capacity in you to do anything other than interact with your caricature-strawman, for you never do.

On the other hand, I have every expectation that you and the other anti-Calvinistic, anti-Sovereignty, open-theist types will try again and again to instruct me as to what I believe rather than listen to what I am saying. I guess it's just easier to interact with a figment of your own imagination...

The Archangel

 

[Dr. Bob]

Let's make a couple things clear.

Start a thread intentionally Calvinistic/Arminian with "poke-in-the-eye" language and I'll erase it.

Like this one.

Start a thread on Calvinistic/Arminian topic and too stupid to put it in the correct forum, I will assume malice and start awarding suspension points.

And I can do this. Talk about "absurd".

We HAVE rules about provocative speech and hating brothers. We HAVE a place for these discussions and I cannot imagine "Christians" unwilling or unable to abide by these rules.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Why not try to present what I said fairly? I never denied God has decreed whatsoever comes to pass. I simply expounded the way he did it. Permissive will (in regard to sin and its consequences) versus will of good pleasure.

You also ignore that Isaiah 46:10-11 includes His will of good pleasure as verse 10 explicitly states "I will do all my pleasure" - v. 10b

You have so much hatred within you that you cannot even deal fairly with those who oppose your position.

1) I presented your views accurately.

2) You did deny that God decreeing something sets it in stone because God then foreknows it will happen in just that way. It does not matter whether it is a primary cause, a secondary cause or whatever cause, all are decreed, foreknown and predestined to occur. There is no room for a permissive will if whatsoever comes to pass is foreknown and predestined.

3) I did not ignore, but specifically addressed Isaiah 46:10-11, saying the Calvinism view leaves no room for permissive will. I also addressed that God does predestine and bring about whatever He purposes to bring about.

At the end of the day, your post provides no support for the mistaken doctrines of Calvinism.

 

[Van]

Let's make a couple things clear.

Start a thread intentionally Calvinistic/Arminian with "poke-in-the-eye" language and I'll erase it.

Like this one.

Start a thread on Calvinistic/Arminian topic and too stupid to put it in the correct forum, I will assume malice and start awarding suspension points.

And I can do this. Talk about "absurd".

We HAVE rules about provocative speech and hating brothers. We HAVE a place for these discussions and I cannot imagine "Christians" unwilling or unable to abide by these rules.

Not sure what you are saying here, Dr. Bob. I think saying God predestines whatsoever comes to pass yet God is not the author of sin is an absurdity. So I said Calvinism presents absurdity.

Are you saying "absurdity" is now an off limits word because it is a poke in the eye? Absurd = ridiculously incongruous or unreasonable. If God has fixed the future, including each and everyone of our sins, then to say God is not the author of sin seems to be presenting ....

 

[The Biblicist]

1) I presented your views accurately.

No you did not! Anyone reading what you said versus what I said knows you did not fairly represent me. Instead you read your meaning into my words instead of allowing me to define my own terms. For example, look at the #2 below and your INTERPRETATION of what I said rather than being fair and simply stating what I said.

2) You did deny that God decreeing something sets it in stone because God then foreknows it will happen in just that way.

See how you add your interpretation to my words! You don't stop with reinterpreting my words but you go on to say:

It does not matter whether it is a primary cause, a secondary cause or whatever cause, all are decreed, foreknown and predestined to occur. There is no room for a permissive will if whatsoever comes to pass is foreknown and predestined.

So, you claim to be the final judge and jury as to how God can and cannot decree something. The permissive will of God is clearly made plain in Psalm 76:10 and the will of good pleasure is explicitly stated in Isaiah 46:10 "I will do all MY PLEASURE."

When the Bible speaks of the "will of God" there are various applications:

1. The REVEALED will of God or the Scriptures - Deut. 29:29a
2. The SOVEREIGN will of God's - Deut. 29:29b
a. Permissive will of God in regard to sin - Psa. 76:10
b. Postive will of God's good pleasure - Isa. 46:10/Philip. 2:13b "my pleasure"

3) I did not ignore, but specifically addressed Isaiah 46:10-11, saying the Calvinism view leaves no room for permissive will.

Another misrepresentation of my view as I never gave Isaiah 46:10 to prove God's permissive will but his will of pleasure "I WILL do ALL MY PLEASURE"

 

[Van]

No need to make up charges that are false.

1) Did Biblicist say what his actual view was? Nope.

2) Next, I am not the judge or jury, I am presenting the carefully documented views written concerning the WCF. There is no room for a permissive will if everything is decreed, foreknown and predestined. If my choice is decreed and predestined by God, then my choice is a non-choice, and God authored it.

3) If God decreed, foreknew, and predestined whatsoever comes to pass, the only "will" in view is exhaustive determinism.

a) Deuteronomy 29:29 does not mention the will of God, but does say God does not reveal everything, but what He does reveal belongs to us and those who come after, so we can observe the works of the Law.

b) Psalm 76:10 again does not mention "permissive will." It says when God exercises His righteous judgments upon men, those delivered will praise God.​

Bottom line, Biblicist simply reposts non-germane verses over and over, adding nothing but ad homenim charges to the mix.

There is no room for a "permissive will" where God allows His creation to make autonomous choices that have not been predestined, according to the WCF. Everything has first been decreed, and then foreknown, and then predestined. Period.

The Biblical view is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of sin.

 

[webdog]

The only absurdity here is your butchering of the Westminster Confession (which I do not hold to, by the way).

Article 3 is as follows:



If you'll notice, the word is "ordain." The ordaining of things is not the same as the determination of things. Ordination takes the free will of man into account; determination does not.

You do know what ordain means, right? To order of decree. You are playing semantics

Of course, I have no expectation that you'll listen, for you never do. I have no expectation that you'll rightly articulate our position, for you never do. I have no expectation of any capacity in you to do anything other than interact with your caricature-strawman, for you never do.

On the other hand, I have every expectation that you and the other anti-Calvinistic, anti-Sovereignty, open-theist types will try again and again to instruct me as to what I believe rather than listen to what I am saying. I guess it's just easier to interact with a figment of your own imagination...

The Archangel

Pure ad hominem trolling. The absurdity is your entire post.