Calvinism started with John Calvin True or false?

[HankD]

Most of American Christianity is semi-pelagian. You're in common company.

Suit yourself.

HankD

 

[rsr]

I do not believe that Hank is a semi-Pelagian. He does not believe that man can make the initial steps toward a right relationship with God.

I cannot say how much of American Christianity is semi-Pelagianism. I suspect much of it is full-blown Pelagian; and much of it doesn't even concern itself with such old-fashioned things but is dedicated to feel-goodism.

 

[JonC]

It is mistaken to try to draw a straight line from Augustine to the magisterial reformers. Augustine and Calvin had decidedly different views on total depravity, for example, and even different formulations of election and perseverance.

Truth is, Calvin's views differ from Dort not only on perseverance but also on total depravity. Dort is somewhere between Augustine and Calvin on total inability.

It is not surprising that Calvin and Augustine had different views of total inability to be in proper relationship with God without the unmerited urging of divine grace. August was 1) influenced by Neoplatonism and 2) was more interested (in the quote offered in this thread) in battling Manicheism than coming to a definitive understanding of the exact formulation of total inability. My own speculation is that Augustine also was intent on disputing continuing Gnosticism that maintained that the flesh was inherently evil; no, he said, humans are created by God and thus are an expression of God's good creation, no matter how corrupted they have become.

There is also a little bit of translational philosophy: Calvin believed that "image of God" (imago Dei) and likeness of God were indistinguishable. Augustine, justified or not, believed they were two separate things. Thus, while Augustine could hold that human nature was not "evil," man had still been corrupted by the fall and could not, without unmerited and unprompted grace, come to a full relationship with God.

IMHO.

I believe we shouldn't ignore the influences inherent in each of these views (Augustine, Calvin, Beza, the Canons of Fort,....Luther, Zwingli...Karl Barth... ect) as they are often colored with hues of reactionary emphasis to certain teachings.

 

[TCassidy]

Sure you are...you just don't know what Semi-pelagian is. If you did, you'd see yourself as one.

He's not. Hank has been on this forum for 16 years. We pretty much know where he stands.

You, on the other hand, have been here for 2 months. You don't quite have enough experience to make such determinations about us and where we stand.

 

[TCassidy]

As they are often colored with hues of reactionary emphasis to certain teachings.

That is really all the Canons of Dort were, a reaction to the Remonstrance.

 

[Yeshua1]

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

HankD

Yes, as those who have been granted by God the ears to hear shall hear Him and live!

 

[Yeshua1]

It is mistaken to try to draw a straight line from Augustine to the magisterial reformers. Augustine and Calvin had decidedly different views on total depravity, for example, and even different formulations of election and perseverance.

Truth is, Calvin's views differ from Dort not only on perseverance but also on total depravity. Dort is somewhere between Augustine and Calvin on total inability.

It is not surprising that Calvin and Augustine had different views of total inability to be in proper relationship with God without the unmerited urging of divine grace. August was 1) influenced by Neoplatonism and 2) was more interested (in the quote offered in this thread) in battling Manicheism than coming to a definitive understanding of the exact formulation of total inability. My own speculation is that Augustine also was intent on disputing continuing Gnosticism that maintained that the flesh was inherently evil; no, he said, humans are created by God and thus are an expression of God's good creation, no matter how corrupted they have become.

There is also a little bit of translational philosophy: Calvin believed that "image of God" (imago Dei) and likeness of God were indistinguishable. Augustine, justified or not, believed they were two separate things. Thus, while Augustine could hold that human nature was not "evil," man had still been corrupted by the fall and could not, without unmerited and unprompted grace, come to a full relationship with God.

IMHO.

Good points, as there were more than just those 2 who were involved in articulating what would become known as Calvinistic theology,,,
And Augustine still would hold to catholic theology regarding salvation as in the sacraments, would he not, unlike Calvin?

 

[rsr]

Sure. And they both accepted infant baptism, but for different reasons.

 

[MennoSota]

He's not. Hank has been on this forum for 16 years. We pretty much know where he stands.

You, on the other hand, have been here for 2 months. You don't quite have enough experience to make such determinations about us and where we stand.

Spoken like a semi-pelagian. [emoji41] [emoji109]

 

[HankD]

Spoken like a semi-pelagian. [emoji41] [emoji109]

I am not a Pelagian semi or otherwise, I'm a Gemini!

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

I am not a Pelagian semi or otherwise, I'm a Gemini!

HankD

May the stars be with you...and your semi-pelagian ways.

 

[HankD]

May the stars be with you...and your semi-pelagian ways.

I never met God half way, He dragged me into the kingdom.

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

I never met God half way, He dragged me into the kingdom.

HankD

Are you sure, cause that's a Calvinist claim. [emoji41]

 

[HankD]

Are you sure, cause that's a Calvinist claim. [emoji41]

That's my own story, others have a different one.
I was running away from God because I thought He would destroy me when He caught me.
I had been reading the OT (Law) in my barracks and it slaughtered me. I had absolutely no hope. I came to the light while reading the Gospel of John.

Some Christians go gently into the kingdom.

Grace alone and free will are not mutually exclusive in my estimation.
In some folks there seems to be a harmony there as they come to Christ.
I would be dishonest to deny that observation.

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

That's my own story, others have a different one.
I was running away from God because I thought He would destroy me when He caught me.
I had been reading the OT (Law) in my barracks and it slaughtered me. I had absolutely no hope. I came to the light while reading the Gospel of John.

Some Christians go gently into the kingdom.

Grace alone and free will are not mutually exclusive in my estimation.
In some folks there seems to be a harmony there as they come to Christ.
I would be dishonest to deny that observation.

HankD

It can seem that way, but the Bible doesn't present that and neither does your own testimony. Our response to God making us alive can be nearly instantaneous, which may seem like we chose something. But we are reacting to God's goodness and Spirit filling. It is glorious as your testimony can attest.
Why such reticence to acknowledging God's full work in salvation and your blessed response. Just as Paul never chose Jesus, but was chosen against his will, so you and I did the same thing. But, when God gripped us we both responded "My God and King."

Grace can only be grace when God alone is the cause agent of our salvation.

 

[TCassidy]

Spoken like a semi-pelagian. [emoji41] [emoji109]

Be careful of calling me names.

 

[MennoSota]

Be careful of calling me names.

Lighten up Alice. [emoji41]

 

[HankD]

It can seem that way, but the Bible doesn't present that and neither does your own testimony. Our response to God making us alive can be nearly instantaneous, which may seem like we chose something. But we are reacting to God's goodness and Spirit filling. It is glorious as your testimony can attest.
Why such reticence to acknowledging God's full work in salvation and your blessed response. Just as Paul never chose Jesus, but was chosen against his will, so you and I did the same thing. But, when God gripped us we both responded "My God and King."

Grace can only be grace when God alone is the cause agent of our salvation.

I've always known that but so do many maybe most non calvinists.

What is so important about all this honor given to calvin (a man) anyway?

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

I've always known that but so do many maybe most non calvinists.

What is so important about all this honor given to calvin (a man) anyway?

HankD

It has nothing to do with Calvin. It has everything to do with God's word, which Calvin read with accuracy in regard to salvation being by grace alone.

 

[HankD]

It has nothing to do with Calvin. It has everything to do with God's word, which Calvin read with accuracy in regard to salvation being by grace alone.

Baloney. He (C) often gets way to much by way of accolades amongst his followers.

HankD