Calvinism - TULIP - "I"rresistible Grace

[Salamander]

Being a "prisoner" of God means to have complete protection against those who might try to gain access to you and carry out their vengence against you asthe "avenger of blood" could.

We are not restrained by his love towards us, but constrained.

Being constrained involves the efficacy of his love as it causes one to desire to remain in the love of God. Remaining in the love of God speaks of perfect communion with Him. we do this according to and of our own will.

If being the prsioner of Christ meant to be restrained, it would fit into the dogma of calvinism, but aren't we all glad we are constrained to do his will!!!:godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

Let me ask you this. Is the main goal of God to save all of mankind?

Let me answer you with this: God has no "goals".

God only saves those who truly repent. Repentence/ godly sorrow, is an action according to the efforts of grace offered. Grace is a free gift, not a mandate.

II Peter 3:9

I wouldn't try to limit God to my wisdom or understanding concerning salvation of all the "whosoevers". Calvinism attempts to limit the Holy One of Israel.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Seems you've found a way to reach the end of God's ways, somehow.:laugh:

What I would like for you to try and do is explain Romans 11 in the preceding verses before v. 33?

If God concluded them all in unbelief, as the calvinists describes the actions of God, these people got saved and then God still sealed their fate "in unbelief" and they all went to hell. Yet they obtained mercy beforehand, but as the Scripture says "God hath concluded them all in unbelief".

I love showing the pitfalls of calvinism, hope you don't mind.:godisgood:

 

[JoshuaLawn1611]

If Calvanistic Salvation is true, that only those whom God elects will be saved, and those who die in there Sins and go to hell because God created that person to burn in hell for all eternity. If thats true, then wouldn't God chose to save every man born in this world. You can't tell me that God would create someone just to send them to hell, and then the Lake of fire.
Now another way to look at it, if iresistable grace is true. Then tell me how the Children of Israel "willingly" chose to reject the Lord Jesus Christ. If man does not have the will to chose to believe or reject the Lord Jesus Christ. That either meens that every Jew born from abraham till now are in heaven, regardless of rather they chose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or not, which would have made the Lords sacrifice on calvary in vain. Or that God willed his own people to burn in Hell for all eterinty. If iresistable grace is true, then all of Israel should have recieved the Lord Jesus Christ, but they didn't. You can not be saved if you reject the Lord Jesus Christ as your saviour.
"¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Pet 3:9 AV1611 Now, of course not all are going to be saved, but that is what God wills. So if iresistabel grace is true, then that mean that all from the time of Adam are in heaven and that hell is empty. Of course that is not true but that is the consaquence of iresistable grace.
The Lord Jesus christ said,
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:15 AV1611. Now if the Lord Jesus was trying to teach iresistabel grace he wouldn't have said whosoever, and again Jesus says,
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn 3:16 AV1611, and yet again he says later on in John
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Kind of careless of the Lord Jesus to tell you that whosoever may come, and really be mean only the elect may come.
The Bible teahes that Grace is free to those who believe. Whosoever may come.
Calvanistic salvation is not supported by the word of God. It can not stand againsed the Word of God. God grace if for all who believe. If your not of the elect, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and become of the elect.:thumbs:
Josh,

 

[jdlongmire]

Let me answer you with this: God has no "goals".

You are kidding, right?

goal = 2: the end toward which effort is directed : aim

God only saves those who truly repent. Repentence/ godly sorrow, is an action according to the efforts of grace offered. Grace is a free gift, not a mandate.

Partially correct.

Grace is given first, so we would not be immediately judged and condemned, then faith so that through it we could be saved.

II Peter 3:9 is addressed to the elect

II Pete 1:
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

I wouldn't try to limit God to my wisdom or understanding concerning salvation of all the "whosoevers". Calvinism attempts to limit the Holy One of Israel.

**sigh** again, it does not limit God to proclaim what he has revealed.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Seems you've found a way to reach the end of God's ways, somehow.:laugh:

Deuteronomy 29:29
" The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

God's salvation is no mystery - He saves those he has chosen - the elect.

What I would like for you to try and do is explain Romans 11 in the preceding verses before v. 33?

Not sure what you are asking, here.

If God concluded them all in unbelief, as the calvinists describes the actions of God, these people got saved and then God still sealed their fate "in unbelief" and they all went to hell. Yet they obtained mercy beforehand, but as the Scripture says "God hath concluded them all in unbelief".

Look at the word the KJV uses for unbelief - the NAS uses the proper term - disobedience.

Go read this, but if you are stuck on the term "unbelief", go read this.

And if you are properly exegeting this passage, you would see that Paul is talking about nations/races - not individuals.

I love showing the pitfalls of calvinism, hope you don't mind.:godisgood:

Certainly not! Where were they, again? :tonofbricks:

 

[jdlongmire]

This is going to be a long one, sorry.

If Calvanistic Salvation is true, that only those whom God elects will be saved,

This is what the Bible teaches - Salvation belongs to the Lord.

and those who die in there Sins and go to hell because God created that person to burn in hell for all eternity.

God created Man to glorify Christ as Savior and Judge. He elects some to salvation despite their sinfulness and judges the rest according to the sin of Adam and their own sin.

If thats true, then wouldn't God chose to save every man born in this world. You can't tell me that God would create someone just to send them to hell, and then the Lake of fire.

Can the Bible?

Romans 9

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Now another way to look at it, if iresistable grace is true. Then tell me how the Children of Israel "willingly" chose to reject the Lord Jesus Christ. If man does not have the will to chose to believe or reject the Lord Jesus Christ. That either meens that every Jew born from abraham till now are in heaven, regardless of rather they chose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or not, which would have made the Lords sacrifice on calvary in vain. Or that God willed his own people to burn in Hell for all eterinty. If iresistable grace is true, then all of Israel should have recieved the Lord Jesus Christ, but they didn't. You can not be saved if you reject the Lord Jesus Christ as your saviour.

Read Romans 11

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]that he might have mercy upon all:
not upon all the individuals of Jews and Gentiles; for all are not concluded in, or convinced of the sin of unbelief, but only such who are eventually believers, as appears from the parallel text, (Galatians 3:22) ; and designs all God's elect among the Jews, called "their fulness", (Romans 11:12) ; and all God's elect among the Gentiles, called "the fulness of the Gentiles", (Romans 11:25) ; for whom he has mercy in store, and will bestow it on them; and in order to bring them to a sense of their need of it, and that he may the more illustriously display the riches of it, he leaves them for a while in a state of unbelief, and then by his Spirit thoroughly convinces them of it, and gives them faith to look to, and believe in, the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto eternal life. [/FONT][/FONT]

"¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Pet 3:9 AV1611

I think you mean 2 Peter 3:9

Now, of course not all are going to be saved, but that is what God wills. So if iresistabel grace is true, then that mean that all from the time of Adam are in heaven and that hell is empty. Of course that is not true but that is the consaquence of iresistable grace.

All here is speaking of the elect for the sake of whom he delays His judgment since the Fall as opposed to the group in v7.

7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The Lord Jesus christ said,

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:15 AV1611. Now if the Lord Jesus was trying to teach iresistabel grace he wouldn't have said whosoever, and again Jesus says,
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn 3:16 AV1611, and yet again he says later on in John
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Kind of careless of the Lord Jesus to tell you that whosoever may come, and really be mean only the elect may come.

"Whosoever" is the elect, since only they have been saved by grace through faith as a gift.

The Bible teahes that Grace is free to those who believe. Whosoever may come.
Calvanistic salvation is not supported by the word of God. It can not stand againsed the Word of God. God grace if for all who believe. If your not of the elect, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and become of the elect.:thumbs:
Josh,

The Bible consistently teaches that Man is dead in his sin and God, in His mercy elects some to salvation of His own good pleasure, while reserving the rest for judgment.

Now that might not be a salve for a Man-centered listener, but it is sweet to the ears of a God-centered believer.

Salvation belongs to the Lord!

 

[skypair]

My problem with election begins with the process of selection. The way Calvinist describe it, it resists reason, logic, and spoken language. According to God's good pleasure does not a election/selection make...

Welcome, HisServant. :wavey: You're new here, aren't you? :laugh:

These people whose "tail you're twisting" have a LOT invested in this one perspective of God and salvation. You'll not easily get around their nebulous "good pleasure" argument as to why God elects some to salvation. But they have to give that as their explanation because, rather than trust the biblical teaching that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES will be saved, ALL Calvinists admit they don't know why He chooses whom He does! It makes answering "free will" assertions rather awkward as you can readily see. :tear:

skypair

 

[skypair]

God does not answer to you or to me. If we find out that the good pleasure of God is "random selection" (I don't believe it is), then who are you to question the motives of God?

You're totally out of line, JD! God loves us and He DOES answer to you and me ---- especially regarding promises He Himself has made to us who trust in Christ!!!!

"His good pleasure" reveals to us the reasons are hidden in the wisdom of God, unknown to men.

IOE, ignorance is bliss, right? Apparently YOU don't trust scripture because God's answers are right before you face. But you would rather trust "The Ignorant Ones" who CAN'T tell us why God chooses whom He does to salvation and CAN'T tell us how evil entered into the world and CAN'T tell us how soul and spirit can be "divided asunder" by the word (Heb 4:12) and CAN'T tell us where the "covenant of grace" is found in scripture and who have absolutely NO prophetic wisdom to impart to us ... and on and on it goes!! See, they're all too busy purveying MEN'S word rather that God's word.

The violitional expression of one's will as being enslaved to sin, and therefore unable to seek God without God's intervention is prevalent throughout scripture.

"God's intervention" is the "preaching of the gospel" which anyone who is not "brain dead" or retarded can understand (per God's word/promise).

(I yield the "soapbox" back to you for the balance of my time. :laugh

skypair

 

[skypair]

I think one aspect of God's selection lies in the person that is willing to give up any aspect of free-will - since it is the root of sin.

I would agree that Calvinism discourages "free thinking," if that is what you are getting at. :laugh:

But even as money, it is not the "medium of exchange" that is the evil, it is the motivation behind its use that is the sin.

That is - I'd rather be a slave to God and His righteousness than free to sin.

Where do you get these "platitudes?? It's not an "either - or" option. Even Adam was free to do 1000 right things but he CHOSE to do the wrong thing.

s how I believe we will be in eternity. Unable to sin. And not because we retain the free-will to do so - He will remove the ability from us! Hallelujah!

No, jdl. We're going to be like God Who is completely capable of doing evil but 1) knows the consequences and therefore, always chooses the Good.

Do you not find that the more you know about God's ways, the less tempting sin is? In eternity, that will be perfected. But then you have an inaccurate estimation of eternity, too, don't you?

skypair

 

[skypair]

If Calvanistic Salvation is true, that only those whom God elects will be saved, and those who die in there Sins and go to hell because God created that person to burn in hell for all eternity. If thats true, then wouldn't God choose to save every man born in this world. You can't tell me that God would create someone just to send them to hell, and then the Lake of fire.
Now another way to look at it, if iresistable grace is true. Then tell me how the Children of Israel "willingly" chose to reject the Lord Jesus Christ if man does not have the will to chose to believe or reject the Lord Jesus Christ.

WELCOME, JOSH! :jesus:

You basically capture the gist of Calvinism's dilemma. "WILLINGLY" assumes good and bad options. Calvinism apparently assumes that only "bad" options are presented to the unregenerate (which, at one time, they agree they, too, were -- unregenerate, that is!). So Calvinism has to make the "unregenerate" will "free" somehow to receive Christ.

VIOLA! The "pixie dust" of "regeneration without knowledge or belief!" God "sprinkles" THEM (which is why you most often see baptism by sprinkling in Reformed churches), the "elect," with said "pixie dust" before they even hear or obey the gospel! Isn't it wonderful how God's grace overwhelms "irresistibly" those who know nothing of Him!? And now they "WILLINGLY" (kinda stretches the meaning of the word but...) "willingly" hear what their fellows can't hear -- are drawn" (or "dragged" in some Calvinists circles) where the "eternally condemned reprobates" cannot come --- unto repentance and profession of their "election" ... er, "salvation." God has such a wonderful "plan" for His "elect," wouldn't you agree?

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

I would agree that Calvinism discourages "free thinking," if that is what you are getting at. :laugh:

Ah, a free-thinker...you do understand that is the favorite appellation of the atheist?

But even as money, it is not the "medium of exchange" that is the evil, it is the motivation behind its use that is the sin.

Whatever this means...

Where do you get these "platitudes?? It's not an "either - or" option. Even Adam was free to do 1000 right things but he CHOSE to do the wrong thing.

Again - your Man-centered philosophy

No, jdl. We're going to be like God Who is completely capable of doing evil but 1) knows the consequences and therefore, always chooses the Good.

God cannot do evil - God is good - evil is "not God"- law of non-contradiction. A can't be not-A, but you probably don't want to limit God to being non-contradictory, right?

Do you not find that the more you know about God's ways, the less tempting sin is?

The more my faith is perfected through sanctification, I die to the world and temptation.

In eternity, that will be perfected. But then you have an inaccurate estimation of eternity, too, don't you?

You build up strawmen and knock them down, don't you? :tonofbricks:

 

[jdlongmire]

VIOLA! The "pixie dust" of "regeneration without knowledge or belief!" God "sprinkles" THEM (which is why you most often see baptism by sprinkling in Reformed churches), the "elect," with said "pixie dust" before they even hear or obey the gospel! Isn't it wonderful how God's grace overwhelms "irresistibly" those who know nothing of Him!? And now the "WILLINGLY" (kinda stretches the meaning of the word but...) "willingly" hear what their fellows can't hear -- are drawn" (or "dragged" in some Calvinists circles) where the "eternally condemned reprobates" cannot come --- unto repentance and profession of their "election" ... er, "salvation."

skypair

You know, it is almost funny, were it not so sad, how you beat up your little strawmen.

I now understand why Rip was frustrated with you - I am going to eschew any vitriol, instead I have created:

My standard response link to skypair.

 

[skypair]

Ah, a free-thinker...you do understand that is the favorite appellation of the atheist?

You don't see the "forest for the trees," do you jdl?

We are all "taught of God" and "believer priests." We needn't rely on those "yokels" and "hayseeds" who had only the "Latin Vulgar" (as it is denominated) and "St Augustine" to rely on! Come out of the "cornfield," jdl! You're what one preacher I knew calls "Yesterday's Man!"

God cannot do evil - God is good - evil is "not God"- law of non-contradiction. A can't be not-A, but you probably don't want to limit God to being non-contradictory, right?

Except for one thing -- you make God NOT omnipotent. You make God so that there is something He cannot do.

What happens to your "theory" if man, who is created in His image, CAN do evil?? Is man more powerful than God? Or just dumber?

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

My standard response link to skypair.

 

[skypair]

You know, it is almost funny, were it not so sad, how you beat up your little strawmen.

C'mon, Mr Hotshot! Show me how the "man" is made of "straw!"

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Let me answer you with this: God has no "goals".

Its one thing to have a human idea or guess of what is true, and still another thing to prove what the Bible says. I give you just a few verses.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Eph 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 4:27
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

God only saves those who truly repent. Repentence/ godly sorrow, is an action according to the efforts of grace offered. Grace is a free gift, not a mandate.

II Peter 3:9

Well it took a while, but this was the verse I knew was coming.

Lets work with it for a while.

The text..

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Now some would claim that this passage is talking about the non-believer. So if we take it that way what do we have?

If this would be the goal of God to save all of mankind and this verse proves it we have a problem. There is but one time when God could have saved all of mankind. This was before Cain was born. But God did not.

About 155,000 people die a day around the world. Lets say that half of those people are believers in the true God. I feel that half is a rather high number, but if I gave the number I feel it would only be a guess, and it would make you case look even more silly.

So half of 155,000 you have 77,500 believers going to heaven and 77,500 non-believers going to hell.

This year going by those numbers about 14,105,000 have gone to hell just starting from the beginning of the year. Last year we would have around 28,287, 500 going to hell, that is if only half of the people are saved.

Each day 1000s more go to hell. From when Christ died on the cross countless millions have gone to hell.

If this passage is talking about the non-believer, what is God waiting on?

There is another meaning that makes sense and fits the context better.

 

[Jarthur001]

C'mon, Mr Hotshot! Show me how the "man" is made of "straw!"

skypair

oh brothers.
:BangHead:

Do not be fooled by silence of others, thinking victory for yourself. The reasoning behind your post makes people smile to much to ever quit replying to you sky. However, at times one must get back to the reality of the Bible and away from folly.

In time I'm sure there will be another one of those "irresistible" post of yours that will make others desire to shoot it down. Hang in there. All is not lost....Hotshot.

 

[HisServant]

Its one thing to have a human idea or guess of what is true, and still another thing to prove what the Bible says. I give you just a few verses.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Eph 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 4:27
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.





Well it took a while, but this was the verse I knew was coming.

Lets work with it for a while.

The text..



Now some would claim that this passage is talking about the non-believer. So if we take it that way what do we have?

If this would be the goal of God to save all of mankind and this verse proves it we have a problem. There is but one time when God could have saved all of mankind. This was before Cain was born. But God did not.

About 155,000 people die a day around the world. Lets say that half of those people are believers in the true God. I feel that half is a rather high number, but if I gave the number I feel it would only be a guess, and it would make you case look even more silly.

So half of 155,000 you have 77,500 believers going to heaven and 77,500 non-believers going to hell.

This year going by those numbers about 14,105,000 have gone to hell just starting from the beginning of the year. Last year we would have around 28,287, 500 going to hell, that is if only half of the people are saved.

Each day 1000s more go to hell. From when Christ died on the cross countless millions have gone to hell.

If this passage is talking about the non-believer, what is God waiting on?

There is another meaning that makes sense and fits the context better.

Unbelievacable!!!! :tear:
God only loves the elect, he hates everybody else enough to torture them throughout eternity for no other reason than that's what he created them for.

That places him in pretty bad company according to his own words...
Matthew 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:45-47 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 6:32
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luke 6:31-33 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)

 

[Jarthur001]

I love showing the pitfalls of calvinism, hope you don't mind.:godisgood:

If you have some pitfalls, now would be a good time to point them out. So far its not working for you. Now this should tell you something.

My guess is that you will not change your views even with all you pitfalls shown as bogus claims, but rather keep trying to find more pitfalls of Calvinism. It becomes a mission for some. Good luck with that.

 

[jdlongmire]

C'mon, Mr Hotshot! Show me how the "man" is made of "straw!"

skypair

My standard response link to skypair.:thumbs:

 

[Jarthur001]

Unbelievacable!!!! :tear:
God only loves the elect, he hates everybody else enough to torture them throughout eternity for no other reason than that's what he created them for.

Is God unjust for this? God forbid.

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe." So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, "Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe." So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.[c]

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

That places him in pretty bad company according to his own words...
Matthew 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:45-47 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 6:32
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luke 6:31-33 (in Context) Luke 6 (Whole Chapter)

It is clear you do not understand the love of God. God is LOVE not loving. To see what pure love is please read the love chapter and KNOW that love never fails.