Calvinism - TULIP - "I"rresistible Grace

[HisServant]

Is God unjust for this? God forbid.

The injustice is not with God, we can agree on that. But in this case the injustice lies with a doctrinal position that places such untowardness at the foot of the throne of God...

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Just to keep things in perspective, when I talk to God, I bow my head and approach him with humility and a contrite spirit: When I talk to reformers I stand straight up and assume a defensive posture... I am standing straight up now....

It is clear you do not understand the love of God. God is LOVE not loving. To see what pure love is please read the love chapter and KNOW that love never fails.

In order to understand love I use a two pronged approach, to find out what it is, I read the love chapter: To find out what it is not, I read reformed theology...

 

[Rippon]

In order to understand love I use a two pronged approach, to find out what it is, I read the love chapter: To find out what it is not, I read reformed theology...

So you haven't read much Reformed Theology then, have you?Instead of condemning what you haven't read, why not read some of the material -- past and present?To say something as unfounded as :"To find out what it [ love ] is not, I read Reformed Theology." qualifies as being, what's the word?, o,silly.

 

[Jarthur001]

The injustice is not with God, we can agree on that. But in this case the injustice lies with a doctrinal position that places such untowardness at the foot of the throne of God...

In this case you have yet to give any Bible prove of your logic that has not been shown to be folly thinking. Where as, the Calvinist at least can support their views from the Bible. It would seem based on this your doctrinal position lies only in human logic and has nothing to do with the will of God.

Just to keep things in perspective, when I talk to God, I bow my head and approach him with humility and a contrite spirit: When I talk to reformers I stand straight up and assume a defensive posture... I am standing straight up now....

As you should. We are not to be worshipped for God only holds this honor. But this in no way address the point made.

You said...
God only loves the elect, he hates everybody else enough to torture them throughout eternity for no other reason than that's what he created them for.

I posted...
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Do you have the right to call God unjust? Can God send the non-elect to hell to be tortured when it was God that created the non-elect? Even in your own free-will mind, you claim God knows all things. God knew all things at all time, i'm sure you would agree with. But man was not around at all times. So there was a point before man existed that God knew and man did not exist. And part of what God know was that some men would go to hell. And then God made the elect and the none elect. Did God have the right to do this? Was God unjust for making the non-elect?

In order to understand love I use a two pronged approach, to find out what it is, I read the love chapter: To find out what it is not, I read reformed theology.

This is but folly on your part. It would seem like if you had a point to make you would at the very least try to prove it. Just a silly jab with no proof is spit in the wind when others see no meat to your claims.

1 Cor 13

8 Love never fails.

Does Gods love end? Will God stop loving you? Does God love the people that He slashes with a sickle and sends to hell?

 

[HisServant]

So you haven't read much Reformed Theology then, have you? Instead of condemning what you haven't read, why not read some of the material -- past and present? To say something as unfounded as:" To find out what it [love] is not, I read Reformed Theology." qualifies as being, what's the word?, o,silly.

I have probably read more reformed theology than you have. It is such an aberrant theology that I became obsessed with it and whither it is true or not... It is not...

Disagreement with you does not translate into ignorance.

 

[HisServant]

In this case you have yet to give any Bible prove of your logic that has not been shown to be folly thinking. Where as, the Calvinist at least can support their views from the Bible. It would seem based on this your doctrinal position lies only in human logic and has nothing to do with the will of God.

Calvinist support their views by twisting the bible. And human logic is sufficient being that that is all that either you or I have. Nothing supernatural happens when a Calvinist reads the bible.

Logic huh? Shall we start with the logic of "un-conditional election". Illogical

Do you have the right to call God unjust? Can God send the non-elect to hell to be tortured when it was God that created the non-elect? Even in your own free-will mind, you claim God knows all things. God knew all things at all time, I’m sure you would agree with. But man was not around at all times. So there was a point before man existed that God knew and man did not exist. And part of what God know was that some men would go to hell. And then God made the elect and the none elect. Did God have the right to do this? Was God unjust for making the non-elect?

As far as God is concerned, all that I have to support asking questions of his is the passage in the bible that says "come, let us reason together... But I do maintain that I have every right to call reformed theology unjust. I do...

1 Cor 13
8 Love never fails.

Logic demands that we conclude that from a reformed perspective, it certainly failed the non-elect... But then because they are not a part of your group, they deserve to be hated. You call it justice...

 

[Jarthur001]

Calvinist support their views by twisting the bible. And human logic is sufficient being that that is all that either you or I have. Nothing supernatural happens when a Calvinist reads the bible.

Logic huh? Shall we start with the logic of "un-conditional election". Illogical

In other words, your answer to this verse...
"You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

is...Illogical???? How can you say that about God??


It should be noted, I post verses...you reply with your theory with no support. Somehow that works for you. I'll stick to the Bible truth.

As far as God is concerned, all that I have to support asking questions of his is the passage in the bible that says "come, let us reason together

This is why you fall short in your logic.

Before Paul says.."Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"
He says..."Who art thou, Lord?"

The chief duty of man is to know God. Believing in God is only the begining. You must ask.."who art thou Lord?" before you can serve him and say..."Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"

Notice the words in Isa 43
Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

. But I do maintain that I have every right to call reformed theology unjust. I do...

You have ever right to do so, as you have ever right to reject all truth. However, it should be noted election has nothing to do with Gods justice, so again your logic falls short.

Maybe it would be a good time to read and KNOW your God and stop coming up with this man made ideas.

Logic demands that we conclude that from a reformed perspective, it certainly failed the non-elect...

Love never fails.

But then because they are not a part of your group, they deserve to be hated.

Not only the non-elect, but all man deserves hell and the wrath of God. You will not stand before God and demand your right like you are doing here.

You call it justice...

No...I call it mercy

 

[HisServant]

In other words, your answer to this verse...
"You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

is...Illogical???? How can you say that about God??

Strangle the straw man... I am not answering back to God... I AM TALKING TO YOU...

This is why you fall short in your logic.

Are you for real, human logic and reason is the only tool that God has given to man to understand his revelations to us...

Before Paul says.."Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"
He says..."Who art thou, Lord?"

That's what I do also. When I ask "who art thou, if your response is not "I am God", then I do not ask the second question...

Stop trying to frighten people into agreeing with you by trying to make them think that to disagree with you is the same as disagreeing with God... I am not frightened; neither do I have respect for your argument.:BangHead:

No...I call it mercy

I have been told on numerous occasions that the elect got mercy and the rest got justice. Consult with your own....

 

[Jarthur001]

Strangle the straw man... I am not answering back to God... I AM TALKING TO YOU...


Are you for real, human logic and reason is the only tool that God has given to man to understand his revelations to us...



That's what I do also. When I ask "who art thou, if your response is not "I am God", then I do not ask the second question...

Stop trying to frighten people into agreeing with you by trying to make them think that to disagree with you is the same as disagreeing with God... I am not frightened; neither do I have respect for your argument.:BangHead:



I have been told on numerous occasions that the elect got mercy and the rest got justice. Consult with your own....

Again all readers take note.
1) no verses used for support.
2) no reply to the verses posed by the Calvinist.

mans logic vs the Bible once again.

Being that you will not support your argument with the Bible, your words are but folly. There is no need to go on. You can have the last word, and if by chance you use a verse I may reply. Good day.

 

[JoshuaLawn1611]

This is going to be a long one, sorry.



This is what the Bible teaches - Salvation belongs to the Lord.



God created Man to glorify Christ as Savior and Judge. He elects some to salvation despite their sinfulness and judges the rest according to the sin of Adam and their own sin.



Can the Bible?





Read Romans 11




I think you mean 2 Peter 3:9



All here is speaking of the elect for the sake of whom he delays His judgment since the Fall as opposed to the group in v7.


The Lord Jesus christ said,


"Whosoever" is the elect, since only they have been saved by grace through faith as a gift.



The Bible consistently teaches that Man is dead in his sin and God, in His mercy elects some to salvation of His own good pleasure, while reserving the rest for judgment.

Now that might not be a salve for a Man-centered listener, but it is sweet to the ears of a God-centered believer.

Salvation belongs to the Lord!

Boy o Boy, you know, you really have to wrestle scripture to prove calvanism. You have to add to scripture and you have to take away from scripture.
For instance, you say that all dosen't mean all. Well when I was in school, I was taught that all ment all.
When you read 2 Pet 3:9 (yea I knew it was 2 Pet, I just forgot to put the 2 before pete, my bad)
all means all, Peter didn't say all of the elect. Those who have been born from adam till now. God does not want any to burn in hell, that is why he gave us an choice To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, or reject the Lord Jesus Christ and pay for your sins through out eternity. But becasue God wants his people to love him by there "own free will", he doesn't want a bunch of robot.
It is God's grace that he saved me, but I still had to believe on his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus. Even if God wanted me saved, but I rejected his son, blasphemed his son, I would have ended up in hell. But thanks to Gods grace I believed on the Lord Jesus in March 2005, and I now know with certinty that I will live forever with the Lord Jesus Christ.
"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1-2 AV1611
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 AV1611
I believe with all that I am that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am not a "man centered listener". The Lord Jesus Christ is everything to me. If it wasn't for him, I would be on my way to destruction. If I recieved what I truly desirve, I would be in the center of Hell, and I would burn for all eternity. Thanks to God's grace He has saved me from hell and has givin me eternal life.
In 2005, I came to a cross road, I could have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ right then and there, but I didn't, I "chose to believe on him as my saviour, and to live for him the best I can"
"For I can do all things through Christ, which straingtheneth me" Phil 4:13 AV1611
Salvation is to all that will believe. For if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, Thou shalt be saved Romans 3:9 AV1611
God will by his grace save any man who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, wether they are of the elect, like I said before, if your not of the elect now, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" and you will become of the elect

 

[jdlongmire]

Boy o Boy, you know, you really have to wrestle scripture to prove calvanism. You have to add to scripture and you have to take away from scripture.
For instance, you say that all dosen't mean all. Well when I was in school, I was taught that all ment all.

I am glad you went to school, I wish they had taught you a bit more about whitespace.

I was wondering when the old saw "all means all" would show up.

By your reasoning, if I can show one time in Scripture where all does not mean "every member or individual component", then you are refuted.

Matthew 3:4-6

4Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.

5Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan;

6and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.

Did every single person in Judea go out to John and get baptized?

No.

Please stop bringing up well refuted objections then using them to prop up your strawmen.

 

[Jarthur001]

Boy o Boy, you know, you really have to wrestle scripture to prove calvanism. You have to add to scripture and you have to take away from scripture.
For instance, you say that all dosen't mean all. Well when I was in school, I was taught that all ment all.

It is clear you don't understand his post. He never said all does not mean all. All must be taken in context. If I walk into a room full of people and say...

"ok..everyone...come to my house and we will have hotdogs!!".

Everyone means everyone, but it does not mean everyone in the world, but everyone in the room.

All does mean all, but please apply to context next time.

When you read 2 Pet 3:9 .......Peter didn't say all of the elect. Those who have been born from adam till now. God does not want any to burn in hell,

If God does not want any to burn in hell and it was God's goal to save mankind, why did God not do this before Cain was born? He could have....but he did not.
All would have been saved....but now they are not.

Each day God waits 1000s more go to hell.
What is God waiting on?
If Christ waits another year to come back, millions more will go to hell.

But becasue God wants his people to love him by there "own free will", he doesn't want a bunch of robot.

This is but poor understanding of Calvinism and shows you have not a clue what they believe. Free-willers with no understanding always fall back on the robot ploy exposing their lack of understanding of the doctrines. This ploy must be found in a poorly written book on how to hate a calvinist and prove he is wrong, for it is used so much.

No one but maybe a hyper-Calvinist believes men are robots.

It is God's grace that he saved me

,
If this be the case, you need to stop giving the glory to yourself and give all to Him.

but I still had to believe on his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus.

And Calvinist would agree

Even if God wanted me saved, but I rejected his son, blasphemed his son, I would have ended up in hell.

Please note this verse...
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Does all mean all? If God wants you to be saved, He will give you to the Son and you will be saved. right?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12 AV1611

 

[skypair]

My standard response link to skypair.:thumbs:

You will -- I promise -- regret not taking these issues seriously. It reveals 2 things about you: 1) You can't answer and 2) you do not care to "instruct" others in YOUR ignorance.

Again, I give you another chance to answer "where is the straw?" :laugh:

The "pixie dust" of "regeneration without knowledge or belief!" God "sprinkles" THEM (which is why you most often see baptism by sprinkling in Reformed churches), the "elect," with said "pixie dust" before they even hear or obey the gospel! Isn't it wonderful how God's grace overwhelms "irresistibly" those who know nothing of Him!? And now the "WILLINGLY" (kinda stretches the meaning of the word but...) "willingly" hear what their fellows can't hear -- are drawn" (or "dragged" in some Calvinists circles) where the "eternally condemned reprobates" cannot come --- unto repentance and profession of their "election" ... er, "salvation."

skypair

 

[skypair]

If you have some pitfalls, now would be a good time to point them out. So far its not working for you. Now this should tell you something.

My guess is that you will not change your views even with all you pitfalls shown as bogus claims, but rather keep trying to find more pitfalls of Calvinism. It becomes a mission for some. Good luck with that.

First, James, someone who is RIGHT shouldn't change his views.

But second, please tell how to make a "blind man" see if not with scripture (as in "point them out"). We've been telling you that you have the devil's dictionary and trying to correct your bogus definitions from scripture. What WOULD you believe/see?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Is God unjust for this? God forbid.

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

Can we just change those words a little to reflect what you seem to us to be saying?

"Is [Calvinism] unjust for this? [Calvinism] forbid.

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to [Calvinism]?"

You're really just saying that Calvinism knows the will of God when it doesn't. Rom 11 speaks about how God has dealt with ISRAEL. I, on the other hand, would have EVERY RIGHT as an individual to question God as to why He won't save me! Justice and fairness are at stake, are they not? In fact, that questioning is the way many are "drawn" to Christ, James!

It is clear you do not understand the love of God. God is LOVE not loving. To see what pure love is please read the love chapter and KNOW that love never fails.

No. It is obvious the YOU do not understand scripture when it says "plain as day" "For God so loved the WORLD..."

You know who doesn't think God loves the whole world? Those under conviction and those who, like Eve, are under the delusion of Satan. Please, James. Spare us your phobias and neuroses -- believe the BIBLE.

skypair

 

[skypair]

The chief duty of man is to know God. Believing in God is only the begining. You must ask.."who art thou Lord?" before you can serve him and say..."Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"

WOW! I agree with you! Know God. So why is it you major in Calvinism rather than scripture?

However, it should be noted election has nothing to do with Gods justice,...

Oh? So now God is unjust??

Love never fails.

News flash for James -- If I offer you salvation and you refuse it, love has failed.

But, in fact, the verse you cite refers to preservation of the saints and MUTUAL love. I am so sorry that even as I type these words, you won't understand them, James. :tear:

skypair

 

[skypair]

Again all readers take note.
1) no verses used for support.
2) no reply to the verses posed by the Calvinist.

mans logic vs the Bible once again.

Being that you will not support your argument with the Bible, your words are but folly. There is no need to go on. You can have the last word, and if by chance you use a verse I may reply. Good day.

Looks like he's got you "answering yourself" in the negative. :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

I am glad you went to school, I wish they had taught you a bit more about whitespace.

I was wondering when the old saw "all means all" would show up.

This is getting more hilarious by the minute! All doesn't mean all? "Whitespace?"

By your reasoning, if I can show one time in Scripture where all does not mean "every member or individual component", then you are refuted.

No. Context "rules." The rule is "if common sense makes good sense, seek no other sense." What is it about "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" that you don't believe it means "all?" So what is it about the context of "but that ALL should come to repentance" that you doubt? Do you doubt God's love? His justice? His veracity?

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

First, James, someone who is RIGHT shouldn't change his views.

The verses have been posted to back what I say.

Here we have more of mans logic. Sad.

But second, please tell how to make a "blind man" see if not with scripture (as in "point them out").

What do you mean by blind man?

We've been telling you that you have the devil's dictionary and trying to correct your bogus definitions from scripture. What WOULD you believe/see?

This is about the 3rd time you have called me of the devil which is not allowed on this board, but for some reason you feel you are above the rules and sin seems not to matter to you. Why is this?

 

[jdlongmire]

This is getting more hilarious by the minute! All doesn't mean all? "Whitespace?"

No. Context "rules." The rule is "if common sense makes good sense, seek no other sense." What is it about "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" that you don't believe it means "all?" So what is it about the context of "but that ALL should come to repentance" that you doubt? Do you doubt God's love? His justice? His veracity?

skypair

My standard response link to skypair. :thumbs:

 

[Jarthur001]

Can we just change those words a little to reflect what you seem to us to be saying?

"Is [Calvinism] unjust for this? [Calvinism] forbid.

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to [Calvinism]?"

Who in the world but a man centered person stuck on his own view in doctrine would change scripture? But you have. Why do you feel like you have the power to change the Bible?

Shame on you. You need to ask forgiveness now.

The verses read as I have posted..

Romans 9 ESV

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

You're really just saying that Calvinism knows the will of God when it doesn't. Rom 11 speaks about how God has dealt with ISRAEL. I, on the other hand, would have EVERY RIGHT as an individual to question God as to why He won't save me! Justice and fairness are at stake, are they not? In fact, that questioning is the way many are "drawn" to Christ, James!

Frankly...I have been wasting my time with poor logic and poor understanding of the Bible that you display in your post. I mean to debate and make points that must be addresses is one thing, but to rebuild the foundations of the faith is yet another. I see no need for me to go over such grade school things again.

No. It is obvious the YOU do not understand scripture when it says "plain as day" "For God so loved the WORLD..."

i rest my case.