Calvinism - TULIP - "L"imited Atonement

[jdlongmire]

Unfortunately for you your faith is exactly the same kind of faith as the unregenerate.

Prove this scripturally. Start another thread, if you like.

Brother, you are in error.

 

[jdlongmire]

2 Thessalonians 3:2
and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.

 

[jdlongmire]

Romans 12
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,

5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;

 

[Jarthur001]

And this is my point. Faith in and of itself is meaningless and has no value. The only value faith can have is the value of the object to which faith clings.

.....SNIP.......


There are not different types of faith (other a faith that saves and one that is vain) because faith is still just that - faith.

.........SNIP.......

IOW - It is the object to which faith clings that makes it saving or vain, not the faith itself.

And here in rest the how of God giving faith. One has no faith in God till God provides the means which will supply that faith. This is done as the eyes of the sinner is open to the things of God, and faith takes hold on the sinner where he then believes. Some eyes are never opened by God, and some are closed by God as seen in the state of the Jewish nation as a whole today, and therefore the means to have faith in God is not in that person. When scripture says God gives faith, it means he provides a way for that faith to take place in man. In the song "Amazing Grace" the writer writes..." taught my heart to fear". Newton is talking about when he was in the ship fearing for his life and knowing it could be taken at any moment. This fear made Newton think of death and also the fear of standing before God. Fear (in God) is the beginning of wisdom (Gods wisdom). This fear lead to Newtons salvation. Newton was saying it was this fear brought on by God that brought him the faith to believe in God. So you see God CAN give faith.

Newton saw the storm as the grace of God that drove him to God and also provided the means to have saving faith. Newton was a good Calvinist...no?

 

[Allan]

And here in rest the how of God giving faith. One has no faith in God till God provides the means which will supply that faith.

This is what I'm talking about James.
All men have the capcity of faith and because they do such capcity we see them plainly placing it in so many various things but not in God because they are blinded or their minds darkened due to sin. I totally and completely agree that it is God and God alone who provides the means which will supply that faith - Revelation of the Truth - Gospel/Christ ..et..

This is done as the eyes of the sinner is open to the things of God, and faith takes hold on the sinner where he then believes. Some eyes are never opened by God, and some are closed by God as seen in the state of the Jewish nation as a whole today, and therefore the means to have faith in God is not in that person.

I agree with this but I believe their eyes 'were' opened but they rejected the truth He revealed to them. When I state "opened" I am refering to the fact scripture states they knew and understood (In order to know/understand any spiritual truths it can only be revealed by God Himself) but they turned from the truth for a lie (Rom 1:18- ; 2 Thes 2:10-12)
However I do agree with you that Nationally Israel is blinded - no real need to get into that.

When scripture says God gives faith, it means he provides a way for that faith to take place in man.

Amen.

So you see God CAN give faith.

I understand your point here but this is not the same argument I typically come in contact with that states God has to give a person faith (as in place it in them) because they do not have it. Your argument is referencing God the process of coming TO faith not the giving of something they never had.

Thus God didn't give him 'faith'. God established his faith (which he already had the capcity of).. in Him through means. He already had fthe capcity of faith but it was a worthless faith because the object of his faith was worthless by Gods eternal standards. Thus God gave him Christ that he might believe or have faith in Him.

 

[Allan]

2 Thessalonians 3:2
and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.

You making huge a assumption with these passage in trying to make them state your preference.

Look at it again.
This in no way states that men do not have faith but that not all men are apart of 'the' faith. You can see this in the NLT translation here:

Pray, too, that we will be saved from wicked and evil people, for not everyone believes in the Lord.

New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

Again this is not speaking of all men of all time regarding the having of faith or not but but those of the faith or not at that 'present' time or moment refering in contrast to the wicked men that will persecute them instead of giving them the freedom to preach the gospel.

Here is an excert from Matthew Henry on the passage "for not all have faith".

For all men have not faith;
that is, many do not believe the gospel; they will not embrace it themselves, and no wonder if such are restless and malicious in their endeavours to oppose the gospel, decry the ministry, and disgrace the ministers of the word;

You have to do a lot of changing to make it state what you would prefer it to say.

 

[Allan]

Romans 12
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,

5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;

I find it interesting how many people try to use both the passages you cited as proof-texts for God having to give faith to a person in the sense of literally placing it in them to use later because they don't have any faith.

This is speaking about spiritual gifts (like the ones in 1 Cor 12) and many Calvinists agree. Look it up. Check out John MacAuthur's Commentary on it. When I get home I'll post it up for you but at work I don't have access to it here (that is where I am).

Here is an article By J. MacAuthur in which he states that Rom 12:3-8 are about spiritual gifts that should hold you over till morning :

This list of practical exhortations comes at a very essential part of the book of Romans. Most people think that the major part of Romans is over by chapter 12, but it isn't. They see chapters 1- 11, which deal with the doctrine of salvation; 12:1-2, which deal with commitment; and 12:3-8, which deal with spiritual gifts, as the heart of the book. However, I believe the heart of the book begins in verse 9. The intent of this epistle was to call believers to live a certain way. The first 11 chapters were simply the foundation for that way of living. It was Paul's way of saying, "I've given you eleven chapters of what God has done to make this possible; now dedicate your life to Him (12:1-2), use your gifts to the fullest extent (12:3-8), and begin to live like this (12:9 ff. ). " The last few chapters are really the message of Romans.

It does not mean what you assume it does.

 

[Allan]

Here is MacAurthur's Commentary on Rom 12:3 (specifically dealing with being given a measure of faith) - as promised :

The humility that God requires and honors does not overestimate or underestimate His gifts but estimates them rightly and uses them rightly. Every Christian can attest, “God has gifted me. He has gifted me graciously and lovingly and will give me everything I need to use my gifts effectively to His glory. I thank Him and bless His name.”

There also are certain right attitudes toward our spiritual gifts. First, we must correctly recognize them and acknowledge that the Lord Himself provides exactly what He wants for us and everything we need to serve Him according to His will, just as [He] has allotted to each a measure of faith. In this context, a measure of faith seems to refer to the correct measure of the spiritual gift and its operating features that God sovereignly bestows on every believer. Every believer receives the exact gift and resources best suited to fulfill his role in the body of Christ.

... sniped illistration ..

Paul is not here referring to saving faith, which believers already have exercised. He is speaking of faithful stewardship, the kind and quantity of faith required to exercise our own particular gift. It is the faith through which the Lord uses His measured gift in us to the fullest. It encompasses all the sensitivity, capacity, and understanding we need to rightly and fully use our uniquely-bestowed gift. Our heavenly Father does not burden us with gifts for which He does not provide every spiritual, intellectual, physical, and emotional resource we need to successfully exercise them.

Because every believer is perfectly gifted, no gift that God has not given should be sought and no gift He has given should be neglected or denigrated. “To each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good,” Paul explains in his first letter to Corinth, and “one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills” (1 Cor. 12:7, 11).

Following are nine guidelines that can be helpful in fulfilling the purpose of our spiritual gifts. We should present ourselves as a living sacrifice (Rom. 12:1); recognize that all believers, including ourselves, are gifted (v. 3); pray for wisdom; seek for nothing (Acts 8:18, 24); examine our heart’s desire (1 Tim. 3:1); seek confirmation; look for the blessing of God; wholeheartedly serve Him; and cultivate the gift as it becomes obvious.

Even when all that is done, it still may be impossible to fully analyze and specifically identify our spiritual gift. It is often not possible to distinguish between God-given natural talent, God-given spiritual abilities, and Holy Spirit power. When a Christian’s life is a living sacrifice to God and he is walking in the Spirit of God, he has no reason to make precise distinctions, because everything he is and has is committed to the Lord. Oversimplifying and overdefining spiritual gifts can cause great confusion, frustration, discouragement, and limitation of their usefulness. Focusing too much on the gifts themselves can hinder their faithful use in the Lord’s service.

The New Testament does not promise that our gift will come neatly packaged and labeled. Nor does it precisely identify the specific gift of any New Testament believer, including the apostles. Believers in the early church were never classified by gifts. On the contrary, the New Testament makes clear that God endows His children with many combinations and degrees of giftedness. He mixes these gifts much as an artist mixes colors on his palette to create the exact shade he desires for a particular part of the painting.

Peter said, “As each one has received a special gift, employ it … .” (1 Pet. 4:10a). He used the definite article (the), indicating a single gift for every believer. But clearly that single gift will be unique in the life of each believer, because it is a combination of the manifold and multicolored categories of speaking and serving giftedness (vv. 10b-11) from which the Spirit colors the believer, and which are then blended with the uniqueness of the mind, the training, the experience, and the effort of the individual—the result being that every Christian is like a snowflake, with no other having the same pattern.

The thrust of Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12, the two central passages on spiritual gifts, is not on a believer’s precisely identifying his gifts but on his faithfully using them. It is also significant that each of these passages mentions gifts that the other does not. This leads us to believe that the categories are basic colors, as it were, from which the Lord mixes the unique hue of each of His children.

All of this must produce humility, because our spiritual usefulness is a purely sovereign work of God, none of which can be attributed to man. Our spiritual usefulness is in spite of and in contrast to our unworthiness and uselessness in the flesh, in which nothing dwells that is good or is capable of glorifying God.

This is from the notable Dr. John Gill on Rom 12:3 the same portion of the verse:

but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith:
such ought to consider that what gifts, abilities, light, and knowledge they have, they have then, not of themselves, but from God; that they have not all faith, and all knowledge, or do not know the whole of the faith of the Gospel only a measure of it, which is dealt out, divided, and parted to every man, some having a greater degree of evangelical light than others; and that all have some, but none all. The Syriac version renders it, "faith in measure"; one of Stephens's copies reads, "the measure of grace";

These are just a couple of Calvinists who disagree with your view of what the scripture means.

 

[Allan]

Herer is John MacArthur on 2 Thes 3:2 (the portion of 'not all have faith'):

The saints probably assumed that because they had received the gospel so eagerly, such positive response was normal for everyone who heard the message. But their acceptance was far from the pattern for many (Acts 14:4–6; 16:16–24, 37–40; cf. Matt. 19:16–22; Luke 4:28–30; John 6:60–66; 7:1–5, 40–44; 8:48–59; 10:22–39; Acts 4:1–21; 5:17–41; 7:54–8:3; 12:1–4), so Paul cautioned them that not all have faith. Some insert the definite article, “not all have the faith,” to make faith refer to the content of the Christian faith. But the phrase more likely means not everyone believes the gospel. However, either way Paul’s point is the same: not all will believe, and those who reject may be hostile to the gospel. This reality moved Paul to call the Thessalonians to pray that as he and his companions preached the word of the gospel, it would triumphantly go forth unhindered and be believed.

MacArthur is saying just what I did but obviously much better.

 

[jdlongmire]

Allan, you have in no way supported your erroneous statement - in fact you have quoted items that support the thesis that God gives a unique saving faith, a faith (the faith, since all other faith is false) that includes spiritual gifts as an integral component of the gift.

I gave biblical support for the thesis - simply stating it does not fit is not a rebuttal.

Please reexamine your statement and recant it.

 

[webdog]

Allan, you have in no way supported your erroneous statement - in fact you have quoted items that support the thesis that God gives a unique saving faith, a faith (the faith, since all other faith is false) that includes spiritual gifts as an integral component of the gift.

I gave biblical support for the thesis - simply stating it does not fit is not a rebuttal.

Please reexamine your statement and recant it.

As Allen has pointed out, even Macarthur and Gill do not believe the Scripture you supplied is saying what you want it to.

 

[webdog]

Are all who call themselves Christians "righteous" ?
Ultimately, the One who knows who among His people is righteous is the One who imputes righteousness, because "known unto God are all His works from the beginning".
Paul himself said it: 'they are not all Israel who are of Israel'.
Similarly we can say they are not all of Christ who say of themselves they are of Christ.
The ceremony of the sprinkling of blood was exclusive to the Jews or to Israel, who were a national people exclusive to Jehovah, created by Jehovah from one man, Abram/Abraham.
Israel was herself a picture of the true Spiritual Israel, composed of both Jews and Gentiles, to whom and for whom only the blood was efficacious.

You didnt' answer the question

It makes no difference if someone refers to themselves as a Christian. That in itself does not make them righteous.

The point is ALL the Israelites (the nation) had the atonement made for them on behalf of the high priest. ALL the Israelites were not righteous, however. The atonement was NOT limited to the righteous Israelites only, as calvinism is trying to make the atonmment to be.

 

[Allan]

Allan, you have in no way supported your erroneous statement - in fact you have quoted items that support the thesis that God gives a unique saving faith, a faith (the faith, since all other faith is false) that includes spiritual gifts as an integral component of the gift.

Me??
I have said consistantly that scripture talks of all men having faith no matter what type you personally wish catagorize it to.
Your the one who denies that even the 'regeneration' of a man has no effect on mans faith but even regernerate his faith remains in it's unregenerate state. Apparently it is the only thing that does not regenerate in your view and therefore God has to give something.

Even as seen in James (Jauthur001) post, he show that man's common faith (though affected by Gods through drawing) is that faith which saves.

The scriptures you pointed out so far in no way supports your 'erroneous' contention that God 'gives' people (or places in them) some type of mystical faith that only works perfectly regarding salavtion but falls short in their christian life.

Each verse you gave I showed where other notable and respected Calvinists disagreed completely with your proof-text because it disagreed with the context. Don't get mad at me, I was simply quoting them.

I gave biblical support for the thesis - simply stating it does not fit is not a rebuttal.

Please reexamine your statement and recant it.

Biblical support?
What you gave was proof-text out of context and nothing more.
I would suggest doing a lot more study on the subject because if you would study them without your presupposition you will find just how incorrect you are even amoung Calvinists becuase it is quite apparent that not all agree either.


I would be glad to look at any other text you might have which state that God must give or place into man this .. saving faith.

My argument is that faith in and of itself is worthless and God giving us faith is an absolutely pointless endevor. It is not faith that saves but grace and grace provided the means of salvation in Christ that he might be the object OF faith. Thus God does not 'give' (place inside a person) some new version of faith but that God works upon them that their faith might changed towards Him. (as seen in Jauthur's post)

 

[jdlongmire]

Paul is not here referring to saving faith, which believers already have exercised.

So JM does believe in saving faith (which was the point and refutes your error), even if he does not make the connection that saving faith and the allotment of faith the Lord gives is inextricably bound.

such ought to consider that what gifts, abilities, light, and knowledge they have, they have then, not of themselves, but from God;

Good grief - are you actually reading the stuff you are cut-n-pasting?

The debate here is around whether God gives saving faith and is the faith of the regenerate different than that of the unregenerate?

There is not true love of God, without faith in Jesus Christ. If, by the special grace of God, we have that faith which multitudes have not, we should earnestly pray that we may be enabled, without reserve, to obey his commands, and that we may be enabled, without reserve, to the love of God, and the patience of Christ. (2Th 3:6-15)

for all men have not faith:

no man has faith of himself, it is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; and it is only given to the elect of God, who are ordained unto eternal life, and therefore it is called the faith of God's elect; all mankind have it not, none but Christ's sheep; and the reason why others have it not is, because they are not of his sheep.

And just to cap it:

3:2 All men have not faith - And all men who have not are more or less unreasonable and wicked men.

Allan, you are wrong and I am about to stop answering you according to your folly.

 

[pinoybaptist]

You didnt' answer the question

It makes no difference if someone refers to themselves as a Christian. That in itself does not make them righteous.

The point is ALL the Israelites (the nation) had the atonement made for them on behalf of the high priest. ALL the Israelites were not righteous, however. The atonement was NOT limited to the righteous Israelites only, as calvinism is trying to make the atonmment to be.

It's too late in the night now, bro. and this dying horse has crawled x number of pages now for me to look up your original question and see how it was worded.
anyway.
you and yours have a good night.
I hope you've found a job.
I did.
for exactly 3 weeks.
and then they said I was not meeting the company's "speed" expectations and fired me.
polite way of saying "you've gotten too old for this job", and/or of escaping the penalty on that "discrimination against age" thing.

 

[Rippon]

Please reexamine your statement and recant it.

I had to laugh when I read the above. The day Allan recants is the day when pigs fly.Seriously, Allan radically departs from Scripture when he maintains that all people have faith, or have have the capacity for faith. And I too found it humorous that Allan wasn't aware that his citations of MacArthur and Gill went against his contentions.Perhaps he is willing to reconsider,rather than recant.Do you, Allan, wish to reconsider your errors under pains of torture?

 

[jdlongmire]

lol - sorry for sounding like a Grand Inquisitor - I, of all people, can relate to the difficulty of admitting you are wrong about something.

It is tough to change that paradigm, I know - particularly when you are SO convinced you are right.

Again - I apologize for my tone if it offended you, Allan.

Blessings in Christ and good night!

 

[Allan]

So JM does believe in saving faith (which was the point and refutes your error), even if he does not make the connection that saving faith and the allotment of faith the Lord gives is inextricably bound.

Let's try this again because your obviously not understanding.
Regarding JM and Gill - my contention in using them was not to establish my primary argument but if you will actaully go back and read you will see that I was showing YOUR opinion concerning what the passages were saying (they show God giving faith or that not all are given faith) and that your opinion was not only incorrect according to my understanding but also according to other Calvinists. You were wrong.

The point was in relation to your proof-texting the passage out context to twist it into something other than it was intended. THAT was the reason for using them.

JOhn Gills portion you highlight speaks of all the things a believer has already and is not refering to saving faith. THAT is my point yet again. The passage is not speaking about what you are twisting it to say.

The debate here is around whether God gives saving faith and is the faith of the regenerate different than that of the unregenerate?

I know what the issue is and your still without textual proof. God does not give 'saving' faith but the means and drawing of men TO faith. Saving faith has nothing to do with the type of faith but the object of faith which makes it saving. That isn't a completed thing to understand. Niether of the previous men cited by me, who are well educated Calvinsts, agree with your .. position.

ALSO..
When John M. is speaking of spiritual gifts it has NOTHING to do with saving faith because the passage is not speaking of it but your the one trying to make it state such.

Allan, you are wrong and I am about to stop answering you according to your folly.

If it is folly to point out a persons misconceptions and misapplications regarding certain passages they are proof-texting (even using those of their own theological views), then by all means stop answering.

However I'm not one to sit back and let another just cite something without examining it first. And if it offends you to be corrected when you are wrong then I can not help with that but I will not just idly by and nod my head.

Lastly I would tread 'very' cautiously when equating another believer as thoug they are unsaved. In case you don't know what a fool is; it is one who has said in his heart there is no God (and non-believer). and acccording your last statement you are implicating me as a fool.

Your statement:

..and I am about to stop answering you according to your folly.

Scripture:

Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

I am no fool and be careful my friend I'm not a ignorant of the scriptures either.

 

[Allan]

lol - sorry for sounding like a Grand Inquisitor - I, of all people, can relate to the difficulty of admitting you are wrong about something.

Actually I have very little problem admitting when I'm wrong and have done many times on the BB alone. I'm not ashamed to say I'm wrong however in this I am correct.

It is tough to change that paradigm, I know - particularly when you are SO convinced you are right.

One can only be convinced according to the truth God has revealed to them. And on that I stand my ground without equivocation. I also have absolutely no problem changing my views IF they can be proven wrong and have done so on various issues a couple even through the BB.

Again - I apologize for my tone if it offended you, Allan.

Blessings in Christ and good night!

Apology accepted and if I to seemed harsh it was not to be so and I also give my apolgies. Besides this thread is about "L" isn't it and not about faith.
Why not let's get back to it, we will agree to disagree on this matter - for now

 

[jdlongmire]

Edited to say - oops! didn't see your reply and I agree - we can agree to disagree.



Allan - we have gone far afield from the OP - I can see that we are proofing the law of diminishing returns.

My hermeneutic is built on the scriptural principle that God gives saving faith as a free gift that fully accomplishes the salvation of that elect person.

That faith, unique to the elect, also is accompanied by certain spiritual gifts. These gifts are allotted by God to do the work He has prepared in advance for us to do according to His good will.

It is our responsibility to take these differing gifts of faith through the Spirit and use them according to the proportion of faith given to us.

Romans 12

3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
7if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.