Calvinism - TULIP - "T"otal Depravity

[webdog]

Curious: How does your hermeneutic work with this?

Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Since Romans 8 is dealing with sanctification...I'm not understanding your point.

 

[Jarthur001]

...and we have a few more that believe dead means corpse.

A spiritual corpse,..... ok that kinda sounds like dead to me.

 

[Allan]

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

So is this really about debate or just your pet place to try to sling mud or misrepresent a 3rd time anothers view.

I'm not saying your doing it intentionally however, when your told it is not truly their view it might be a good idea to find out what THEY believe rather than going to other Calvinists to ask them what those others believe.

We all misrepresent to a degree at times because we do not hold the veiws of the other however your trying to degrade and make fun others who do not even agree with such nonsense.

 

[Revmitchell]

from here

Note the thesis - trichotomy is gnostic in principle.


This philosophy reminds me of the synergist's prayer:

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

Maybe you should actually learn what those of us who do not hold to irresistable grace believe before commenting on it so you are not embarrassing yourself.

 

[jdlongmire]

Allen, RevM - not trying to degrade or misrepresent. Spurgeon's quote is meant to be a gross caricature of the synergist position, because no truly regenerate person would dare express this...except...

Synergism, by it's self definition goes against "salvation belongs to the Lord" - so it is hard for monergists to get around what seems to us a Man-centered or Man-glorifying doctrine.

For my salvation, I boast in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone for the glory of God alone through truth revealed in Scripture alone.

The synergist does not agree with this since they add "along with something of mine"...

 

[Revmitchell]

Allen, RevM - not trying to degrade or misrepresent. Spurgeon's quote is meant to be a gross caricature of the synergist position, because no truly regenerate person would dare express this...except...

Synergism, by it's self definition goes against "salvation belongs to the Lord" - so it is hard for monergists to get around what seems to us a Man-centered or Man-glorifying doctrine.

For my salvation, I boast in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone for the glory of God alone through truth revealed in Scripture alone.

The synergist does not agree with this since they add "along with something of mine"...

Then I must not be a synergist. But I do not hold to irresistable grace. I believe the difference in our beliefs is based on different definitions of "works".

 

[Allan]

Then I must not be a synergist. But I do not hold to irresistable grace. I believe the difference in our beliefs is based on different definitions of "works".

Agreed brother.

 

[Revmitchell]

Agreed brother.

And if there is to ever be a realistic discussion, or debate on the issue it should be there and there alone. Everything else is just issues related to this and useless.

 

[Rippon]

Then I must not be a synergist. But I do not hold to irresistable grace. I believe the difference in our beliefs is based on different definitions of "works".

Rip: This thread deals with Total Depravity, not Irresistible Grace.

And, may I say, a difference in our beliefs also lies in different definitions of words.

 

[Allan]

Rip: This thread deals with Total Depravity, not Irresistible Grace.

Quite true.

And, may I say, a difference in our beliefs also lies in different definitions of words.

To point, true as well.

 

[skypair]

Note the thesis - trichotomy is gnostic in principle.

Unfortunately, trichotomy is a BIBLE principle. You won't get to heaven if you are not "sanctified wholely... body, soul, and spirit, 1Thes 5:23-24. I suggest you leave off the philosophical principles of men and study the biblical principles of godly truth, friend.

And while I have you attention, you still are not responding to my "sin nature" claim --- that Calvinists haven't a clue what sin nature is. Their particular view seems to have been garnered from the philosophy of a man who WAS at one time as bad as he could be -- Augustine.



skypair

 

[skypair]

Wow! Does that 'prayer' ever echo the sentiments of numerous non-Cals on the BB!

It's garbage written by a person who doesn't know how to "grow in grace."

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

Unfortunately, trichotomy is a BIBLE principle. You won't get to heaven if you are not "sanctified wholely... body, soul, and spirit, 1Thes 5:23-24. I suggest you leave off the philosophical principles of men and study the biblical principles of godly truth, friend.

Please demonstrate the "trichotomy" as a biblical principle - in a new thread.

And while I have you attention, you still are not responding to my "sin nature" claim --- that Calvinists haven't a clue what sin nature is. Their particular view seems to have been garnered from the philosophy of a man who WAS at one time as bad as he could be -- Augustine.

Since this is on topic, I will happily respond - please reiterate.

 

[skypair]

For my salvation, I boast in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone for the glory of God alone through truth revealed in Scripture alone.

In other words, you "have a name that liveth but art dead." Or, in words you may be able to comprehend, you know where to go for grace but you haven't chosen it. God chose you but you have not chosen God.

What you express is belief without personal trust or faith. An example would be Judas who believed everything Jesus said about His Messiahship until he saw that it would no longer serve his real lust for personal power. Being "chosen," he never committed personally to Jesus program of salvation but embraced His promises of political, temporal Kingship.

Synergism, by it's self definition goes against "salvation belongs to the Lord" - so it is hard for monergists to get around what seems to us a Man-centered or Man-glorifying doctrine.

"Get thee behind me, Satan!" You're as much as saying, "This [death] shall not be unto Thee" just like Peter said! Just as Christ "chose the nails," I must choose death to myself (live once, die twice; live twice, die once.) 'ere I ever receive life in Him.

This monergist-synergerist thing is between you and the Catholics! Leave us Baptists out of it!

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

In other words, you "have a name that liveth but art dead."

Where is this from in the Bible? I can't find it.

I may be looking in the wrong place, though, just trying to contextualize for my response.

 

[skypair]

Please demonstrate the "trichotomy" as a biblical principle - in a new thread.

It belongs here in that Calvinists claim "spiritual inability" due to "spiritual death"/"total depravity" when, in fact, scripture says we are NOT spiritually unable to hear the gospel nor to respond in trust.

The foundation of trichotomy is the Trinity of God Himself. We are created in God's image to have 3 aspects to our 1 person. For the purposes of our redemption, God has revealed Himself in "Persons" -- 1 per aspect. God/soul, Spirit/spirit, and Jesus/body. Even though our soul be dead (Ezek 18:20), His Spirit communicates with our yet living spirit (mind, emotions, and will) His "eternal godhead" and salvation so that we are "without excuse" in not choosing His salvation by a) knowing Him, b) glorifying Him, and c) thanking Him, Rom 1:21 as is appropriate to the "light" He has given us. So, whereas the soul is indeed, spiritually "dead," the spirit (intellect, emotions, and will) are very much alive and responsive (as you would otherwise admit if it weren't part of your "Reform Dogma" to deny it).

Since this is on topic, I will happily respond - please reiterate.

2) They have a misguided "model" of the sin nature. Every creature born into this world has INSTINCTS that allow it to survive, grow, and regenerate in kind. Only the human creature has "spiritual laws" whereby instincts are regulated for the common good through conscience, family, government, commandment, etc. It is when our "instinctive" acts encounter these "spiritual laws" that we have SIN in the strictest sense of the word, Rom 7:9-11.

The same thing that allows us to understand "spiritual law" (conviction) and obey it on these various levels is the conscience or soul that makes us capable of "seeing" God's provision for sin and obeying it unto salvation.

Ergo, Calvinism's "totally depraved" person just does NOT exist! It is a "philosophical illusion." There is no creature alive that is 1) brain dead and 2) living totally instinctively with no regard for spiritual regulation of his behavior.

 

[skypair]

Where is this from in the Bible? I can't find it..

Rev 3:1, which in the opinion of many, represents the Reform era of the church. And especially note "Remember therefore how YOU received and heard, and hold fast, and repent."

How were YOU saved, jdlong?? By election or by repentance?

Stop preaching this "passive gospel" of yours -- this "I think I am 'elect,' therefore I am 'saved'" gospel -- and start preaching the gospel of scripture that is "conditioned" upon your obedient response to God! Abram didn't have "faith" by believing God and sitting in Ur the rest of his life! You and your fellow Reformers need to get up off your collective "monergistic" duffs before Christ does "come as a thief ... upon you" and cause your "house to be broken!" (Mt 24:43) This is not my warning. It is Christ's!

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Stop preaching this "passive gospel" of yours -- this "I think I am 'elect,' therefore I am 'saved'" gospel --

PREACH IT brother. Oh wait. The elect are the saved.

and start preaching the gospel of scripture that is "conditioned" upon your obedient response to God!

PREACH IT brother. Oh wait. Obedient....is works. Condition...is not grace but what is owed.

I (God) have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace

Abram didn't have "faith" by believing God and sitting in Ur the rest of his life!

Nor did faith come by going. Faith was given by God (Hebrews) and Abram showed this faith by going. Again you must get beyond actions/works and into grace and faith.

You and your fellow Reformers need to get up off your collective "monergistic" duff

s
Get away from Salvation by God alone..and then what?

before Christ does "come as a thief ... upon you" and cause your "house to be broken!"

In other words you think Christ is against salvation is by God alone?

(Mt 24:43) This is not my warning. It is Christ's

!

From my view you are now questioning our salvation, which is nothing new for you, by twisting the words of Christ. Lets see if any non-calvinist will take a stand and call you out for going against the BB rules

 

[pinoybaptist]

.............
From my view you are now questioning our salvation, which is nothing new for you, by twisting the words of Christ.

And you are correct there. Which is why I have very lately tended to stay away from these C/A discussions. It gets to the flesh, and I would rather love skypair.

 

[skypair]

PREACH IT brother. Oh wait. The elect are the saved.

Correction: the saved are elect. But so are some unsaved. Israel was a "chosen people" but not all were saved. Sardis were "chosen" for mention in Rev 2 but they too were not all saved. Judas was "chosen"/"elect" but not saved. You're not going to say he was saved, are you, James?

PREACH IT brother. Oh wait. Obedient....is works. Condition...is not grace but what is owed.

I hear ya. So just don't choose Christ and "cross your fingers" that you're saved. I see a lot of that in Reformed churches, bro. "Name that liveth but art dead."

I (God) have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

"Kept" 'em. Yeah. Saved 'em unconditionally. Nope. Have you read Heb 11 lately?

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace

You're having a problem with WHEN grace and faith are "given." Belief + trust = faith, friend. You seem to believe all that God says -- you just appear to refuse to claim it cause that would be a "work," right? "Name that liveth but art dead."

Nor did faith come by going. Faith was given by God (Hebrews) and Abram showed this faith by going. Again you must get beyond actions/works and into grace and faith.

You are "short circuiting" the facts, James. As with Noah, Abram was "moved with fear." That's "conviction," James. "[F]or he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Do you think that Abram thought believed that God was? Do you think he believed there was reward for leaving Ur? Then you understand what "faith" is.

Get away from Salvation by God alone..and then what?

Then get saved! Perhaps you aren't familiar with real Reform churches but they presume their salvation is "all of God" as they sit patiently in their pews and recite the "Apostle's Creed." Heaven forbid we ask them to "commit" themselves to Christ through repentance of their spiritually "pristine" lives.

From my view you are now questioning our salvation, which is nothing new for you, by twisting the words of Christ. Lets see if any non-calvinist will take a stand and call you out for going against the BB rules

Sardis needs to "remember how they were saved" (Rev 3:3) and quit cutting others off from that access to eternal life. This is not an indictment of you unless you have "climbed over the fence another way," bro. I think the moderators would heartily agree with that view.

skypair