Calvinism - TULIP - "U"nconditional Election

[jdlongmire]

And if you don't think that God can foresee who will believe, you don't believe in an omniscient God.

See - here's the crux of the matter - the way you have presented this - you believe that God looks down the corridors of time and sees who will choose Him, then, based on that knowledge of the future, selects them for salvation.

That is - "I am elected because I selected." or "I chose God, so God chose me" - in other words synergism.

Calvinists believe that God is Sovereign over the entire plan of salvation - that before God started the process of time, God knew - or foreknew His elect and came into covenant among the Trinity that the Son would redeem the elect and be glorified for it. That is - His elect were predestined for communion with Him as a part of an eternal covenant to glorify the Son.

That is - "I am elected because God selected." or "God chose me, so I chose God." or monergism.

The monergistic model is the clear God-centered message that the Bible consistently teaches teaches throughout.

"Salvation belongs to the Lord!"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

See - here's the crux of the matter - the way you have presented this - you believe that God looks down the corridors of time and sees who will choose Him, then, based on that knowledge of the future, selects them for salvation.

That is - "I am elected because I selected." or "I chose God, so God chose me" - in other words synergism.

Calvinists believe that God is Sovereign over the entire plan of salvation - that before God started the process of time, God knew - or foreknew His elect and came into covenant among the Trinity that the Son would redeem the elect and be glorified for it. That is - His elect were predestined for communion with Him as a part of an eternal covenant to glorify the Son.

That is - "I am elected because God selected." or "God chose me, so I chose God." or monergism.

This is the clear God-centered message that the Bible consistently teaches teaches throughout.

"Salvation belongs to the Lord!"

Sorry I don't get it. Both statements end with the same conclusion: "salvation belongs to the Lord."

 

[jdlongmire]

I am sorry you don't get it.

In the first model - synergism - salvation belongs, at least partially, to me.

Just a couple monergistic verses:

Psalm 25:5
Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation;For You I wait all the day.

Psalm 40:16
Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;Let those who love Your salvation say continually,"The LORD be magnified!"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I am sorry you don't get it.

In the first - salvation belongs, at least partially, to me.

Psalm 25:5
Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation;For You I wait all the day.

Psalm 40:16
Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;Let those who love Your salvation say continually,"The LORD be magnified!"

I miss understood. I thought you were differenciate the bottom one not between Synergism and monergism. That's what I get for not reading the whole post.

 

[jdlongmire]

Thanks for the post - I went back and edited 2 previous posts for clarity

 

[skypair]

See - here's the crux of the matter - the way you have presented this - you believe that God looks down the corridors of time and sees who will choose Him, then, based on that knowledge of the future, selects them for salvation.

No, sir. They "select" themselves to salvation and God foreknows about it! And it is not the "corridors of time" -- it is "supratemporality." God exists outside of time seeing every instant at once. And He promises to those who believe that they will be "elect."

That is - "I am elected because I selected." or "I chose God, so God chose me" - in other words synergism.

That is a 'small mind' at work. Those 2 mean totally different things to me and scripture. If you follow them -- "I am elected" = "God chose me." You have put 2 ideas in totally contradictory order.

Calvinists believe that God is Sovereign over the entire plan of salvation - that before God started the process of time, God knew - or foreknew His elect and came into covenant among the Trinity that the Son would redeem the elect and be glorified for it. That is - His elect were predestined for communion with Him as a part of an eternal covenant to glorify the Son.

First, correct me if I am wrong, but there is NO 'covenant of grace' or 'covenant among the Trinity' mentioned in scripture. It is a fabrication of Reform Theology.

And, yes, God did "author" the plan of salvation. But know what? God is "supratemporal." He exist outside of time. It is Christ with Whom we have to deal ("ONE mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ" 1Tim 2:5). So guess what? You don't know and He doesn't know if you are saved/elect. Youre' just like any sinning schmuck that He "doesn't KNOW" (Mt 25:12) unless you believe!

The monergistic model is the clear God-centered message that the Bible consistently teaches teaches throughout.

Sorry, but that is NOT the message of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." And it's not the message of "that whosoever believeth on Him shall be saved." The "monergistic model" is grossly unscriptural, jdl.

"Salvation belongs to the Lord!"

Yeah, yeah. Psa 3:8 'smitten all mine enemies ... broken the teeth of the ungodly.' Would you ever consider this to be temporal in application??

 

[jdlongmire]

No, sir. They "select" themselves to salvation and God foreknows about it! And it is not the "corridors of time" -- it is "supratemporality." God exists outside of time seeing every instant at once. And He promises to those who believe that they will be "elect."

How is that different from what I said? - "I selected, so I am elected."

Man-centered.

And Skypair - we're done going in circles -[personal attack removed]

 

[skypair]

How is that different from what I said? - "I selected, so I am elected."

Perhaps I should ask you, then, what I asked James --- when are you going to cooperate with God? Surely you can't believe that you live monergistically your whole life. At what point do you come over that live as I do, cooperating with the Spirit?

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Youre' just like any sinning schmuck that He "doesn't KNOW" (Mt 25:12) unless you believe!

Rip : One of many examples of a personal attack by Sp which should have been removed by mods.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From The NIV

Perhaps I should ask you, then, what I asked James --- when are you going to cooperate with God? Surely you can't believe that you live monergistically your whole life. At what point do you come over that live as I do, cooperating with the Spirit?

skypair

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do. ( Eph. 2:10 )

Phil. 1:6 : being confident of ths, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Phil. 2:13 : for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

 

[canadyjd]

It is Christ with Whom we have to deal ("ONE mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ" 1Tim 2:5). So guess what? You don't know and He doesn't know if you are saved/elect.

John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me....(27)My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me..."

Once again, your (hysterical) statements are contradicted by the clear teaching of scripture.

But, as usual, I am certain the truth of scripture will not stop you from believing what you want to believe.:tear:

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

The "sheep" in context is true Israel, not all gentiles and jews who compose this nebulous group defined by calvinism as the "elect".

 

[canadyjd]

The "sheep" in context is true Israel, not all gentiles and jews who compose this nebulous group defined by calvinism as the "elect".

The "sheep", in context, are made up of both Jews and gentiles: John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

BTW, the point of the quote was to demonstrate that Jesus does in fact know who are the elect and who He will bring to salvation.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

The "sheep", in context, are made up of both Jews and gentiles: John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

BTW, the point of the quote was to demonstrate that Jesus does in fact know who are the elect and who He will bring to salvation.

peace to youraying:

The other sheep, IMO, are the jews who come to Christ during the tribulation period, which further reinforces the "elect" referring to "true" Israel. Christ's ministry on earth was for the jews...not the gentiles.

 

[canadyjd]

The other sheep, IMO, are the jews who come to Christ during the tribulation period, which further reinforces the "elect" referring to "true" Israel. Christ's ministry on earth was for the jews...not the gentiles.

Your views are not supported by the context of the passage, or any other scripture. It makes no sense to say they are Jews, since they would be considered in the same "fold" as the other sheep. The Jews are the Jews, in the time of Christ or during the tribulation.

John 12:20 "Now there were some Greeks among those who were going up to worship at the feast.....saying (to Philip) 'Sir, we wish to see Jesus'.....(23) and Jesus answered them (Philip and Andrew), saying, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.... "

The "other sheep" are Gentiles. When the Gentiles began to seek Jesus, Jesus then knew His hour of crucifixion had come.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Your views are not supported by the context of the passage, or any other scripture. It makes no sense to say they are Jews, since they would be considered in the same "fold" as the other sheep.

Who was Jesus' minstry geared towards? Clearly, Scripture points to the jews. It makes perfect sense. Jesus' ministry was not geared to a nebulous group calvinism refers to as "the elect".

 

[Rippon]

Jesus' ministry was not geared to a nebulous group calvinism refers to as "the elect".

Don't you believe that the Bible itself often refers to the Elect? It is not a Calvinistic construct.So, in your mind the Elect are "a nebulous group"?!Is the biblical teaching concerning the Elect and Election also nebulous?!The answer from a true believer is "Of course not!"The Elect are from among Jews and Gentiles alike -- from every nation,tribe and language.Jesus met with a number of Gentiles in His ministry who were, or became saved. ( People don't 'become Elect').

 

[skypair]

John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me....(27)My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me..."

Once again, your (hysterical) statements are contradicted by the clear teaching of scripture.

You're right on one point --- I should stop trying to caricature YOUR views as if they were mine. It's too confusing for the readers.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Don't you believe that the Bible itself often refers to the Elect?

Rip, you're still pulling from "Satan's dictionary," bro. Elect in the Bible is not a term that only means 'saved' or 'to be saved.' You're not ever going to come to understanding of the truth using your errant terminolgy. In fact, your terminology is the reason we talk past one another so much and make no progress in growing "in the UNITY of the knowledge and faith of Christ." Eph 4:13.

We're drinking "sweet tea" and you're drinking "Long Island Tea" (an alcoholic beverage)!

skypair

 

[jdlongmire]

You're right on one point --- I should stop trying to caricature YOUR views as if they were mine. It's too confusing for the readers.

skypair

Said the pot to the kettle...