Calvinism -TULIP

[tragic_pizza]

Well, Claudia, according to the context of the passage in Ezekiel you quote, wicked people worship idols on the mountains, commit adultery, oppress the poor and helpless, steal from debtors by refusing to let them redeem their security, worship idols, commit detestable sins, and lend money at excessive interest.

 

[annsni]

What about these verses?

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Claudia_T]

What about these verses?

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Now for what it REALLY says, you left part of it out:

Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Now READ THIS:

Galatians 5:
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now it doesnt take a genius to figure this out, guys


come on, you can do it...


and keep in mind, there is THE LAW and then there is also the law of sin and death... thats the law Paul say "working in his members"... meaning that he kept wanting to sin and sin leads to death... if you sin, you will die... kinda like the law of gravity...

 

[tragic_pizza]

I'd appreciate attention to my post, Claudia.

 

[Claudia_T]

well I happened to be giving attention to someone elses post, Tragic...
read what I just said to annsni for the time being that will be helpful

 

[annsni]

Now for what it REALLY says, you left part of it out:

Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Now READ THIS:

Galatians 5:
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's not in my ESV - I didn't leave it out. It's not in some manuscripts.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Romans 8:1 and Gal. 5:16 both showing us very clear, it is conditional, base upon our respsoniblity and action - "walk". I would like to add one verse in 1 John 3:9 - "Whosever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN, for his seed remaineth in him and he CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God." This verse seems sound like security salvation proof. BUT, it tells us, a person is TRULY born of God, because a person CANNOT continue sinning.

Throughough in the first epistle of John talk lot about our responsiblity with our action - "walk". OR.... if we remain walk in the darkness(sins), then, we are no longer always 'born again' or saved. EEEK!!! :saint:

Please ponder on scriptures.

In Chrost
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

p.s. Claudia T., oh that's right, I forget that you and BobRyan both are SDA. Excuse me, OOOPS!

 

[Claudia_T]

Romans 8:1 and Gal. 5:16 both showing us very clear, it is conditional, base upon our respsoniblity and action - "walk". I would like to add one verse in 1 John 3:9 - "Whosever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN, for his seed remaineth in him and he CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God." This verse seems sound like security salvation proof. BUT, it tells us, a person is TRULY born of God, because a person CANNOT continue sinning.

Throughough in the first epistle of John talk lot about our responsiblity with our action - "walk". OR.... if we remain walk in the darkness(sins), then, we are no longer always 'born again' or saved. EEEK!!! :saint:

Please ponder on scriptures.

In Chrost
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

p.s. Claudia T., oh that's right, I forget that you and BobRyan both are SDA. Excuse me, OOOPS!

1Jn:3:
8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

and everybody knows what "righteousness" means...


thats why He died for us! ...not to give us a license to sin...

1Pt:2:24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


1Jn:2:29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jn:3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Blammo]

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Claudia_T]

okay look, there is number one,

1Jn:1:10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



and there is number two,

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


can anybody figure that out? it STARTS with needing to CONFESS our sins and that we need cleansing from it...

9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


THEN what do you suppose happens?

that would be number two


except you cant graduate to number two unless you confess and get cleansed from your sins FIRST.

 

[Blammo]

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

He is addressing believers. People who have been born again. Not again, and again, and again, and again, and....

 

[Eric B]

Now for what it REALLY says, you left part of it out:

Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Now READ THIS:

Galatians 5:
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now it doesnt take a genius to figure this out, guys

come on, you can do it...


and keep in mind, there is THE LAW and then there is also the law of sin and death... thats the law Paul say "working in his members"... meaning that he kept wanting to sin and sin leads to death... if you sin, you will die... kinda like the law of gravity...

You can see even from the context of those passages that "according to the flesh" actually means one who trusts in the Law, rather than Christ, through the Spirit. We are used to interpreting "living/walking according to the flesh" as "indulging in sins", as opposed to keeping or at least trying to keep the Law. But no one can justify themselves like that by the works of the Law, so they remain under condemnation. And their trust in the works of the Law ndicates that they have rejected the Spirit. So uncovered, and unsanctified, not only are they still condemned, but they also are more likely to practice all of those sins, yielding to the nature in their members (even if it is hidden from everyone else), and most importantly, they remain judged as guilty of those sins, unlike the person who trusts in Christ. Hence "the law of sin and death". That is the great irony!

 

[Claudia_T]

You can see even from the context of those passages that "according to the flesh" actually means one who trusts in the Law, rather than Christ, through the Spirit. We are used to interpreting "living/walking according to the flesh" as "indulging in sins", as opposed to keeping or at least trying to keep the Law. But no one can justify themselves like that by the works of the Law, so they remain under condemnation. And their trust in the works of the Law ndicates that they have rejected the Spirit. So uncovered, and unsanctified, not only are they still condemned, but they also are more likely to practice all of those sins, yielding to the nature in their members (even if it is hidden from everyone else), and most importantly, they remain judged as guilty of those sins, unlike the person who trusts in Christ. Hence "the law of sin and death". That is the great irony!

I see absolutely nothing in those verses that indicate that means anything to do with trying to keep the law.

Romans 8
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Now read verse 7 and 8 and tell me what "in the flesh means?

same as the carnal mind.

 

[Eric B]

V.7&8 go right along with what I said.
"In the flesh" meant an unconverted person, particularly a Jew trusting in his physical inheritance, (hence flesh), plus keeping the Law to save Him.
I didn't say that any attempt to keep the Law was the flesh, nor is that aimed at SDA's. It is those who think they can justify themselves by it, who are still "carnal", and cannot please God, and guilty of those sins, regardless of how pious they may look on the outside.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Eric B,

I disagree with your intepreting of 'in the flesh'. This is not speak toward Jews, it apply to us everyone as individual. No, this is not talk about Jew focus on physical inheritance or keeping the law. "In the flesh" means think self, my own way, and doing wicked things.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Eric B]

Well, for gentiles, "think self--my own way" might be immoral or "wicked acts" we have come to associate with "the flesh". But to the Jews, it was trying to justify themselves through the Law, --which only convicted them as wicked sinners like the Gentiles, and keft them not only self-righteous, but also more prone to commit wickedness on the sneak.
I forgot to add this point yesterday, so both meanings are correct, but to be truer to the original context (and avoid works-salvation which can easily be read into it as we see), it is good to point out its connection to the Jews and the Law.

 

[Dustin]

DeafPostTrib, you must have read Dan Corner's book.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dustin,

yes you are right. I have Dan Corner's book with me. Three years ago, I ordered that book. But, BEFORE I order that book. I read the passage of Matthew 25:14-30 about talents. Matt. 25:30 that bothers me the mostly. Because, it is conflicts with security salvation doctrine. I only know two things that Christians could lose their salvation - take the mark of the beast, take words away from the Bible, God will removed person's name out of the book of life. I always believe two things that we could lose salvation for long time since back in the early 1990's. Now, I realized, throughout in the whole Bible talking about conditional with warnings since God gievn warning to Adam to the very last thing of Rev. 22:19. Obivous, it teaching us with warnings, that we must take heed God's word, and obey them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

p.s. please watch on Saddam's execution right now!!

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 7 Paul argues "The Law is holy just and good but I am not".

In Romans 7 Paul further argues "the Law is spiritual and is spiritually discerned".

In Heb 8 He states that the New Covenant writes the Law of God in the heart.

In Romans 2 Paul states that the true Christian "Shows the Works of the Law written on the heart" so that he is a Jew who is one inwardly. He states further in Romans 2 that in terms of Gospel Justification it is the doers of the Law that will be justified not simply the hearers.

Hence in Romans 8 Paul contrasts saved vs lost and notes that those who are lost "Do NOT walk" in accordance with the Law of God neither indeed CAN they. For they walk after the flesh not the Spirit.

In 1 John 2 we are read this harsh statement by a NT author telling us that the one who does not WALK as Romans 8 says we must walk - and yet they claim to know Christ -- they "are a liar"

That is the obvious part.

Rom 8
5:For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Contrast here is between life and death - saved and lost. Not "lost and loster".

Rom 8
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here again the issue is war and hatred against God. Paul is not making the argument "Those who read scripture and follow it are at war against God by doing that". Rather He is arguing that sinful mankind (defined as BOTH Jews and Greeks in Rom 3) are ALL at war with God until they are born again. This is the starting Context of Romans 2 and 3. Never does Paul argue that only Jews are lost or at war with God.


Rom 8
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In reality, you're beating up some strange hyper-calvinist strawman. Either that, or the doctrine of God's sovereign grace is some sort of stumbling block to you. As stated by my earlier post to EricB, pride does have a lot to do with denying such biblical fact.

So let me get this straight - you are saying that born-again Christians that happen to be Arminian are NOT acting within the sovereign dictates and plans of God as they expose the flaws in Calvinism??

Are you saying that born-again Christians may choose to let pride dictate their actions -- and so they choose to expose the Bible flaws in Calvinism against God's sovereign plan for them?

Please elaborate.

Grace, in the biblical sense is unmerited favor.

Calvinism claims to restricted God from extending unmerited favor in a free will system.

The Arminian model admits to the Free Will system God sovereignly chose according to scripture and admits that this is still unmerited favor extended to lost sinners.

In the bible we are exhorted to strive to be blameless before men, but in Christ we are justified, His righeousness is imputed to us, because we have not any righeousness in our sinful flesh. Why then are we commanded to examine ourselves? "You will know them by thier fruit." as the Lord said. Why did the Lord tell us of judgement day when people will cry Lord , Lord, didn't we do all these great things in Your name?

Because the way you "get results" in a free will system is to "motivate via warning".

If it was a calvinist system - no warning would be needed -- it would all "just happen".

2Cor 13:5 says to "examine yourselves to see IF you are in the faith" -- again this arguing for evidence and evaluation and discernment in a free will system - in a form that warns the lost to take action (make choices) and encourages the saved to persevere (make choices).

in Christ,

Bob