Calvinism -TULIP

[Brother Bob]

Well Claudia;
You do believe John 3:16 don't you?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Claudia_T]

Well Claudia;
You do believe John 3:16 don't you?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16: And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Hi Bob,

Okay so God wants everyone to come to repentance, yes I believe that.

But I am not too sure what that has to do with the choice thing. Please try to be patient with me, Im stupid LOL

Claudia

 

[webdog]

What I am addressing is the reason we make the choices we do. One who is lost sins and never even gives it a second thought about his / her relationship to God. They are, by nature, at emnity with God. They would never choose, of their own free will to love God.

Further clarification on this would be helpful. The whole "one only chooses based on their nature" argument has never been proven Scripturally. This is man made theology.

 

[Claudia_T]

okay WAIT a miute! What about Romans 7, verse 25?


14: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16: If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17: Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.




this is happening BEFORE he gets saved, right?

how can he be serving God with his mind? if there isnt any choice there and he has the depraved sinful nature?


then Romans 8 talks about the carnal mind, etc... cannot serve God..

 

[Brother Bob]

Claudia;

Titus 2:
"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

"15": These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Job 32:
"8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding

 

[Claudia_T]

What are the ultimate implications of either viewpoint on this?

 

[J.D.]

okay WAIT a miute! What about Romans 7, verse 25?


14: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16: If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17: Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.




this is happening BEFORE he gets saved, right?

how can he be serving God with his mind? if there isnt any choice there and he has the depraved sinful nature?


then Romans 8 talks about the carnal mind, etc... cannot serve God..

Hello Claudia, hope you don't mind me weighing in. Romans 7 deals with the issue of sin in the life of a believer. The bible characterizes a lost (that is, unconverted) person as one who LOVES sin. Only the saved can say, in regard to the besetting sin in their life, "that which I hate, that do I."

Ch 8 gives us believers the hope and promise of victory over sin, both in the legal sense (we ARE delivered by Jesus Christ already) and the practical sense (we are BEING progressively saved through the sanctificaiton of the Spirit from the practice of sin). But as long as the flesh lives, we shall not be totally free from sin.

 

[Brother Bob]

25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.




this is happening BEFORE he gets saved, right?

how can he be serving God with his mind? if there isnt any choice there and he has the depraved sinful nature?


then Romans 8 talks about the carnal mind, etc... cannot serve God..

No, its talking to the saved. That which is born of God cannot sin, which is the inward spiritual mind. We will always have a thorn in the flesh until we are resurrected. We don't sin unto death like murder, worship golden calves, adultery, etc, but we do sin like being to swift with our tongues, not going to visit the sick when we should, thoughts that enter our minds, being too lazy to get out to church, failing to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, etc.

 

[J.D.]

Also, Rom 8 give us a contrast between the lost and the saved. The lost have no hope of victory over sin. Believers can expect God's working in their lives. an absence of God's working may be a cause for self-examination, whether we are in the faith.

 

[Claudia_T]

Hello Claudia, hope you don't mind me weighing in. Romans 7 deals with the issue of sin in the life of a believer. The bible characterizes a lost (that is, unconverted) person as one who LOVES sin. Only the saved can say, in regard to the besetting sin in their life, "that which I hate, that do I."

Ch 8 gives us believers the hope and promise of victory over sin, both in the legal sense (we ARE delivered by Jesus Christ already) and the practical sense (we are BEING progressively saved through the sanctificaiton of the Spirit from the practice of sin). But as long as the flesh lives, we shall not be totally free from sin.

JD,

NO I dont mind at all if you weigh in

Okay so the Apostle Paul is saved at that time in Romans 7 and he is saying that with his mind he serves God but he just hasnt figured out yet how to overcome sin. At least I think thats what you are saying.

At that point in Romans 7 he has already been saved and the Holy Spirit is working on his mind and he has already chosen Christ.

well that makes sense to me


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Also, Rom 8 give us a contrast between the lost and the saved. The lost have no hope of victory over sin. Believers can expect God's working in their lives. an absence of God's working may be a cause for self-examination, whether we are in the faith.

JD

I thought that Calvinists didnt believe we could ever fall out of the faith though?

 

[J.D.]

JD,

NO I dont mind at all if you weigh in

Okay so the Apostle Paul is saved at that time in Romans 7 and he is saying that with his mind he serves God but he just hasnt figured out yet how to overcome sin. At least I think thats what you are saying.

At that point in Romans 7 he has already been saved and the Holy Spirit is working on his mind and he has already chosen Christ.

well that makes sense to me


Claudia

I don't think Paul is trying to figure out how to overcome sin in this passage because he already has it figured out. I see the over-arching message as one that affects our conscience and knowledge. The indwelling Spirit brings the preaching and teaching of the word to bear upon our conscience. Our conscience being so enlightened, draws us more and more into a sanctified relationship with God. Sin "easily besets us" as said in Hebrews, but as we have this hope in us (we look to Christ), we purify ourselves even as He is pure. As we draw near to God in sanctification, the Spirit makes intercession for us according to the Will of God.

Sanctification may require response on our part, but only the regenerated, converted believer can respond to the voice of God, for, "it is God that works in you both to do and to will of His good pleasure". So all the phases of salvation are the work of God, and only he gets the glory.

 

[J.D.]

JD

I thought that Calvinists didnt believe we could ever fall out of the faith though?

Notice I said "whether we are in the faith". I'm not advocating falling out, I'm saying that there are some that didn't get in to begin with. They didn't enter in at the "door" (Jesus).

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

They love darkness rather than light and neither do they come to the light, LEST their deeds be reproved. That LEST, seems to say they could if they would.

He would be a weak God if he predestinated me to be one of the "elect" and I refused.

Exactly. Praise the Lord for the Effectual Calling of God which guarantees that none of the elect will ever be lost.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

and what you chose to do with your measure of faith.

For God has given each man a measure, some refute it, some ignore it, others use it....

Nope...anything that is good within me is all about God and nothing about me. Otherwise, it would be merited favor and I would have plenty about which to boast.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
They love darkness rather than light and neither do they come to the light, LEST their deeds be reproved. That LEST, seems to say they could if they would.

He would be a weak God if he predestinated me to be one of the "elect" and I refused.


Exactly. Praise the Lord for the Effectual Calling of God which guarantees that none of the elect will ever be lost.

Joseph Botwinick

You must believe first and then God said "I have chosen you out of the world".

You can try as hard as you like but unbelief will send you to hell.

 

[BobRyan]

So basically, what you are saying is that my sin nature is stronger than the striving of the Holy Spirit of God to restore me. Very rare is it that an Arminian actually admits that they serve a weak, ineffective god.:smilewinkgrin:

Too bad this is not the God of the Bible who is sovereign and effective in all matters. This is the reason that we can trust God and his promises. If there is one molecule in the whole universe that is outside of his control, then God is not God at all.

Joseph Botwinick

it is a ploy of Calvinism to "call God inneffective whenever someone makes a bad choice".

Did God "effectively make Adam sinless and in harmony with his Maker"??
Did God "effectively make Lucifer sinless and in harmony with his Maker"??

The Calvinist uses this "not effective" argument to say "no - because they eventually chose something that was not good".

How transparent that Calvinist argument is -- is left as an exercise for the reader!:sleep:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Well Claudia;
You do believe John 3:16 don't you?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And THAT is why the Calvinist "L" in the TULIP - "Limited Love" -- "Limited Grace" -- "Limited Atonement" -- "Limited Gospel" -- is wrong.

Nice list brother Bob.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[dispen4ever]

Here we go again............

Someone send me an E-Mail or PM to let me know who won.

:sleep:

 

[Claudia_T]

U - Uncondition Election (read arbitrary selection of the FEW in Matt 7 by God, who cares not for the MANY


I dont understand about Matthew 7, and which verses you are talking about.



I guess it means that God elects to be saved whosoever He will and it has nothing to do with how we act...???

"who cares not for the many" does that mean God just lets everyone else be burned in hell and it doesnt matter what they do or dont do?