Calvinism -TULIP

[BobRyan]

Romans chapter 9 is the number one proof-text for the doctrine, since it discusses "vessels of wrath" (people made for "destruction"), and that God "has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and hardens whom He will harden". Then, anyone who questions why God would even create such a person, for instance, are blasted away with a quote of verse 20: "O man, who are you that replies against God?" In other words, this is the "truth" of God's sovereignty, so nobody has the right to question it, not even the poor "vessel of wrath" himself!
But people don't even bother to check the [SIZE=-1]CONTEXT[/SIZE]. This passage is discussing Israel, a nation of people God was judging as opposed to Gentiles whom He was spreading His grace to, not individual people or everyone in a particular group being predestined for wrath as opposed to other individual people being elected for grace.

But whether you claim God is arbitrary and capricious for the nation of Israel or individual-by-individual -- don't the Calvinists still win?

The Challeng for the Arminian side is to show that Romans 9 is NOT identifying a capricious and arbitrary act of God engaged in "arbitrary selection" when it comes to forgiveness, hardening or salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Can I ask a strange question? How can someone save a soul from death, if whoever was going to live will live according to God's election and whoever was going to die will die anyway, for the same reason?

James 5:
20: Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

[JFox1]

P - Perseverance of the saints. Those who are saved WILL persevere FIRM and steadfast to the end - never backsliding or falling away from the truth. (If ten years from today you do fall away - then your salvation today is retro-deleted).

in Christ,

Bob

AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH!!!! :tear:

I just can't get into Calvinism. My background is Methodist, and they're a lot more Arminian and emphasize free will. I'm currently a Lutheran. As far as backsliding is concerned, Martin Luther said that we sin daily.

 

[Eric B]

But whether you claim God is arbitrary and capricious for the nation of Israel or individual-by-individual -- don't the Calvinists still win?

The Challeng for the Arminian side is to show that Romans 9 is NOT identifying a capricious and arbitrary act of God engaged in "arbitrary selection" when it comes to forgiveness, hardening or salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

"Arbitrary and capricious?" God had a plan that involved Israel, and then turned to the Gentiles, and hardened the nation as it rejected her Messiah. Individuals could still be saved out of this, so how is this the same as Calvinism? Hardening a nation is not the same as hardening individuals so they would be unable to be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

If God is trying to harden the nation so that it can not succeed - can not find salvation -- can not accept it's Messiah then it is the same "injustice" as hardening an individual so that they can not be saved.

My point is that God is the SAME in dealing with Israel as in dealing with all humans. God says to Israel in Matt 23 "HOW I WANTED to save your children but you would not" - He weeps over the city. The failure of His chosen people was not his plan nor did He try to harden them.

I am saying that their failure was under the same principle as our individual failure can occur. Paul makes this point clear in Romans 11.

"YOU too fear - for if God did not spare them neither will He spare you".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dustin]

Sinful humans are also known to like "hard" things, particularly when they think it is in their favor! So again, that proves nothing!

Calvinism's whole argument on Arminianism is based on "taking it where it logically leads to", but y'all didn't like it when Dave Hunt did that kind of thing to Calvinism, and when people call "the Calvinist god" of being "cruel" or a "puppet master"; and it also used to be reprimanded on the old CvsA forum here. That's why Claudia sounded befuddled when she said both were wrong. Arminianism is not the same as Pelagianism either.

The problem here is that none of us can explain all of God's workings perfectly. So it's a matter of putting together the truths we do have, and some people highlight one side of things, and the other another side. So both sides can believe something that seems to lead one way, without it having to be taken to what you think is "its logical conclusion".
And most of those passages are being interpreted in light of the Calvinist interpretation of Rom.9, and their whole preconceived theory in general.

But then all of that "false god/idolatry" rhetoric has got to go! Again, do not label us with what you think "or theology leads to". We do not take it that far, like you may not take it as far as what you all disclaim as "Hyper-Calvinism". To say "well, your theology leads to the idolatry of a false, weak god", and then begin addressing us with that, is to in fact call us idolaters, even if you try to direct it hypothetically at an imaginary third party! And if we are idolaters, then either we are not saved, or you believe idolaters can be saved, true christians!
Problem is, Augustine went beyond with those last points, and this was basically unheard of before him. Pelagius crossed a line into error, but then Augustine went to the opposite extreme. Agai, he went to an extreme, when whom God didn't save and speculations on why became just as much apart of the "gospel". The Noah account was a type of salvation, but "all those left behind and got what they deserved" were not the model of the good news. They all chose not to go, and while Calvinism tries to affirm this, the story does not go into all this business that they were denied some "ability" to go or choose, because "God was giving them what they deserved".
Arminianism is not a "systematization" of Pelagianism. It's a lesser extreme. And actually, the entire Catholic Church even distanced itself from Augustine's philosophy, in practice, over time, despite all the councils against Pelagius. There were a few fathers who kept onto it (Aquinas was one of them IIRC), but the Church of course, actually became largely Pelagian again, in practice. I would also say Pelagianism is the theology of Judaism and Islam, because they believe basically, as you explained, that Adam's fall was just a bad example that had no real impact on us. We are to just pick ourselves up and keep trying to obey God's Law, and hopefully we will be able to "make it". Arminians do not believe this, though those heavy in the fifth point do come close to that latter point. But many "Arminians" in Baptist circles do not believe that anyway.

EricB, I really enjoy your replies. They're thought provoking and that is a really good thing. I have to mention though that work prohibits me from posting like I want to, or in a very timely manner. My time was so short this morning I just couldn't reply to your earlier post as I thought I should. So I'm going to move on to this one as I have time now. I don't like hard things at all, I have a family full of unsaved people whom I deeply love, and it's very troubling to know that they are not in Christ. I don't see that is in my favor in anyway, other than God might use my testimony to point them to Christ at His good pleasure so His name would be glorified. It's a hard thing to know my son is at this moment an enemy of Christ by his nature, and I don't like that. That troubles me to sleepless nights, it runs through my mind constantly, but in the end it is not in my hands. I find rest in the fact that when I was a drunken drug addicted blaspheming atheist, God had mercy on me when I wasn't looking for mercy. God made Himself known when I didn't want to know Him. At the very moment I curled up in a ball in my bathroom and wept because the burden of sin was so great, Christ on the cross finally made all the sense in the world. I prayed to God that night that I would die in my sleep, but the next morning I woke up alive and well. It was the most horrible experience of my life. But that took me back to the cross, and as best as I knew how at the time, I repented, put that little mustard seed of faith I was given in Christ and picked up a bible. There isn't an easy way to do that. It was a hard thing. Pride was the first thing to go. Then after that all hope of any effort of mine to change the truth disappeared. I did not make a decision, nor did I humble myself, but I was humbled. Looking back it definatly was the worst feeling ever, but now in light of Christ, it was the best thing to ever happen to me, though at the time I would have begged to differ. I rest in that amazing grace that was given to me when I wasn't looking for it. I pray every night that my son would go through the same. I pray every night that all my family and friends would be saved. But in the end it's not up to me, but it's up to Christ. I pray that the Spirit would move on them as He moved on me. That's my rest, that's why I can sleep at night, because in the end it's up to Him to seek and save. I cannot in good conscience tell them anything else, but what is right and what is true. To do so, would be a sin, and IMHO, a distortion of the very Gospel that saved me. I side with Paul when he said, "I will not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness comes by works of the law (or of anyone but Christ Himself for that matter), then Christ died in vain." It's not merely an issue of me wanting all of you to become Calvinists, or me being hateful because you don't see things the way I see things, but it concerns me that from what people say on here, such things are misunderstood. You are my brothers and sisters, our Head is Christ. It's a very important thing. I CANNOT in good conscience state otherwise. If salvation is attained or retained by anything but grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, then it IS a serious problem. There are some who say that non-Calvinists are not saved, I'm not one of those people. Grace overrides that. In my puny mind, I can't comprehend it, I can't wrap my mind around it and understand it clearly, but I believe it. If it did come across that way I sincerely apologize, you just have to know that I think the doctrines of Arminius and Pelagius are half truths at best and blasphemous lies at worst. The dependence of those doctrines on man's will is at very least robbing God of His due glory and at most a damnable heresy. I don't know which but I cannot in good conscience profess them and call them truth or say anything other than that. I hope you might understand where I'm coming from now. I really do love you all as brothers and sisters, though it may not seem that way. To God be all the glory.

Grace and Peace to you ALL in Christ,
Dustin

 

[tragic_pizza]

Short but right on target. I'm sorry I called you a liberal, with no basis to do so. Please forgive me.

Oh, it's OK. I am liberal.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I - Irresistible Grace (Called and then hauled. You wake one day to discover you are already a Christian so might as well choose Christ as your Savior)


On this point that Bob explained about "Irresistable Grace" when does God decide its "your time" to be "saved" then?

You discover you are already a Christian? so you may as well Choose Christ as your Savior?

I've already addressed this incorrect statement concerning the doctrine of irresistable grace.

 

[Claudia_T]

I've already addressed this incorrect statement concerning the doctrine of irresistable grace.

I would like to hear what other people have to say about it as well.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I would like to hear what other people have to say about it as well.

I would like to hear from people other than those who aren't Calvinist, but "know everything" about the subject.

 

[Claudia_T]

well tragic pizza,

There are lots of people here who think they know everything about the SDA Church but they dont... it works both ways... I just wanna hear other people's point of view, thats all.

 

[Eric B]

If God is trying to harden the nation so that it can not succeed - can not find salvation -- can not accept it's Messiah then it is the same "injustice" as hardening an individual so that they can not be saved.

My point is that God is the SAME in dealing with Israel as in dealing with all humans. God says to Israel in Matt 23 "HOW I WANTED to save your children but you would not" - He weeps over the city. The failure of His chosen people was not his plan nor did He try to harden them.

I am saying that their failure was under the same principle as our individual failure can occur. Paul makes this point clear in Romans 11.

"YOU too fear - for if God did not spare them neither will He spare you".

In Christ,

Bob

But I did not say God was hardening the nation so that it could not find salvation. I clearly distinguished between hardening a nation that already rejected its Messiah, from individuals in the nation who could still repent.

 

[Eric B]

EricB, I really enjoy your replies. They're thought provoking and that is a really good thing. I have to mention though that work prohibits me from posting like I want to, or in a very timely manner. My time was so short this morning I just couldn't reply to your earlier post as I thought I should. So I'm going to move on to this one as I have time now. I don't like hard things at all, I have a family full of unsaved people whom I deeply love, and it's very troubling to know that they are not in Christ. I don't see that is in my favor in anyway, other than God might use my testimony to point them to Christ at His good pleasure so His name would be glorified. It's a hard thing to know my son is at this moment an enemy of Christ by his nature, and I don't like that. That troubles me to sleepless nights, it runs through my mind constantly, but in the end it is not in my hands. I find rest in the fact that when I was a drunken drug addicted blaspheming atheist, God had mercy on me when I wasn't looking for mercy. God made Himself known when I didn't want to know Him. At the very moment I curled up in a ball in my bathroom and wept because the burden of sin was so great, Christ on the cross finally made all the sense in the world. I prayed to God that night that I would die in my sleep, but the next morning I woke up alive and well. It was the most horrible experience of my life. But that took me back to the cross, and as best as I knew how at the time, I repented, put that little mustard seed of faith I was given in Christ and picked up a bible. There isn't an easy way to do that. It was a hard thing. Pride was the first thing to go. Then after that all hope of any effort of mine to change the truth disappeared. I did not make a decision, nor did I humble myself, but I was humbled. Looking back it definatly was the worst feeling ever, but now in light of Christ, it was the best thing to ever happen to me, though at the time I would have begged to differ. I rest in that amazing grace that was given to me when I wasn't looking for it. I pray every night that my son would go through the same. I pray every night that all my family and friends would be saved. But in the end it's not up to me, but it's up to Christ. I pray that the Spirit would move on them as He moved on me. That's my rest, that's why I can sleep at night, because in the end it's up to Him to seek and save. I cannot in good conscience tell them anything else, but what is right and what is true. To do so, would be a sin, and IMHO, a distortion of the very Gospel that saved me. I side with Paul when he said, "I will not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness comes by works of the law (or of anyone but Christ Himself for that matter), then Christ died in vain." It's not merely an issue of me wanting all of you to become Calvinists, or me being hateful because you don't see things the way I see things, but it concerns me that from what people say on here, such things are misunderstood. You are my brothers and sisters, our Head is Christ. It's a very important thing. I CANNOT in good conscience state otherwise. If salvation is attained or retained by anything but grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, then it IS a serious problem. There are some who say that non-Calvinists are not saved, I'm not one of those people. Grace overrides that. In my puny mind, I can't comprehend it, I can't wrap my mind around it and understand it clearly, but I believe it. If it did come across that way I sincerely apologize, you just have to know that I think the doctrines of Arminius and Pelagius are half truths at best and blasphemous lies at worst. The dependence of those doctrines on man's will is at very least robbing God of His due glory and at most a damnable heresy. I don't know which but I cannot in good conscience profess them and call them truth or say anything other than that. I hope you might understand where I'm coming from now. I really do love you all as brothers and sisters, though it may not seem that way. To God be all the glory.

Grace and Peace to you ALL in Christ,
Dustin

Thank you for your nice response.
What I think happens sometimes in testimonies like that is that a person realizes he was full of pride or whatever, and is humbled, and then projects that onto others, and takes some things too far. Hence the common charge of Calvinists that "It's just the pride of our opponents"; "Arminians want to believe they are the masters of their own destiny", "the American spirit of independance", etc. Then, realizing that God has saved you by Hus grace, one generalizes, "well, those others aren't saved because God has not called them, and if they die without Christ, they must have been 'vessels of wrath' He never wanted to save", and that this somehow "glorifies" God better. But I believe all of that is going too far, and the scriptures really do not support it, unless projected into them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Claudia: Okay now, with the first one "T - total depravity of the sinful nature. Unnable to accept Christ" what all exactly does that involve? I want to hear it from all of you.

Doesnt everyone here believe we all have a totally depraved nature?

HP: First, define what you mean by the word ‘nature.’

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: First, define what you mean by the word ‘nature.’

HP good to hear you again. Total Depravity is just how do they mean that? What I keep hearing is they are dead in sin and can't even believe. If it were that a man can't save himself, then I could agree. If it means that a man can't even choose to believe in Christ, then I disagree.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: BB, Merry Christmas to you my friend as well!

The problem is that morality deals with the intents of the heart. No intent?.... No morality can be predicated of the action. Morality is not determined by any means outside of the realm of choice. This is not just choice 'to do as one wills,' but choice in determining the actual intents of the heart.

There is no ‘nature’ that determines choice, for if there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, choice is non existent. When we start down the path of predicating sin to some ‘nature’ we are born with, we have eliminated all morality from the picture, and have entered into the realm of absolute fatalistic determinism, a notion foreign to Scripture and repulsive to reason and justice, especially in light of the punishments and rewards God has inflicted upon sin and righteousness behavior.

 

[Brother Bob]

I seem to think it is just a word that man has picked up to represent that all men must die because of sin, even though it was Adam's sin, we are multiplied Adam. One of the first things God did was to give man a choice. Also, when Adam did sin and eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, since that time all men know good and all men know evil. Why would the two be put before man, if indeed he could not choose which one to do or follow. It would not make sense to show man two ways but say, you can only go the evil one.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BB: It would not make sense to show man two ways but say, you can only go the evil one.

HP: And it would make even less sense to say that God will send a man to an eternal hell for something he personally could not nor did not choose, but rather was merely the necessitated results of the nature he was born with.

Does Satan or Adam have the ability to determine our fate as the maker(s) of our destiny via the oft stated ‘inherited sinful nature?’ If not, who else but God could be responsible for our nature? Is God the author of sin?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joseph Botwinick: Too bad this is not the God of the Bible who is sovereign and effective in all matters. This is the reason that we can trust God and his promises. If there is one molecule in the whole universe that is outside of his control, then God is not God at all.

HP: This is a most amazing statement. Here is an individual that I am certain boasts of an Omnipotent God, and then outright denies that omnipotence by creating a God that cannot, yea could not, could make a creature capable of the formation of intents without being coerced or forced into whatever intents or actions it happens to make, as if one that believes otherwise would of necessity take away or destroy God’s omnipotence.

The limited 'universe views' we create for God to live and act within……………………..how finite, small and destructive of any and all ideas concerning omnipotence, morality, and any idea of just punishments or rewards. What utter deterministic fatalism we buy into without seemingly batting an eye.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

HP: This is a most amazing statement. Here is an individual that I am certain boasts of an Omnipotent God, and then outright denies that omnipotence by creating a God that cannot, yea could not, could make a creature capable of the formation of intents without being coerced or forced into whatever intents or actions it happens to make, as if one that believes otherwise would of necessity take away or destroy God’s omnipotence.

The limited 'universe views' we create for God to live and act within……………………..how finite, small and destructive of any and all ideas concerning omnipotence, morality, and any idea of just punishments or rewards. What utter deterministic fatalism we buy into without seemingly batting an eye.

False. I was describing the false arminian god.

Joseph Botwinick