Calvinism -TULIP

[JFox1]

And Arminianism reduces God to a genie in a bottle, waiting for the will of man before he has any power to act and effect change.

I, for one, would much rather be a robot of a holy and just God who is sovereign in all matters than be the follower of a genie in a bottle.

Joseph Botwinick

If you want to be a robot, that's your choice or did God predestine you to be a robot? :tongue3:

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

If you want to be a robot, that's your choice or did God predestine you to be a robot? :tongue3:

It is my choice because I was predestined by God to follow the one true, holy, just, and sovereign God. I am perfectly satisfied with God's grace (true grace not based on anything good in me) and mercy. Arminians cannot say the same with all honesty. In the end, their salvation was based on something good deep down inside of themselves that decided to choose Christ, and they are the most boastful lot I have ever met.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JFox1]

It is my choice because I was predestined by God to follow the one true, holy, just, and sovereign God. I am perfectly satisfied with God's grace (true grace not based on anything good in me) and mercy. Arminians cannot say the same with all honesty. In the end, their salvation was based on something good deep down inside of themselves that decided to choose Christ, and they are the most boastful lot I have ever met.

Joseph Botwinick

Whatever.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Whatever.

Merry Christmas!:wavey: :godisgood: :jesus:

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Claudia_T]

Joseph,


Hi ... I havent really talked to you much but when you say that Arminians are boastful because they think their salvation is based on their choice...

I dont see it that way at all.

Im not up on all the terms like Arminianism and all of that...

But if you do something wrong let's say, and the Judge looks at what you have done and decides you need to be thrown in jail as punishment...

The King comes along and He decides to let you out, based solely upon His mercy and grace, like the parable Mt:18:27: "Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt."

Well you can decide you dont want the gift of mercy from the king.

Or you can decide to do as the man in the parable did...


Matthew 18:
26: The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27: Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28: But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

well because of the man going out and not having compassion on anyone else when the King had compassion on him (which basically compassion and love are the same thing... I view that as keeping the Law) ...

...this doesnt mean the things the King did with the man at all diminishes the King's grace and the undeserved mercy He showed on the man.

All was because of His mercy. The King representing Jesus and His mercy, of course.

Everything was solely because the King decided to have mercy, The man in the story COULD NOT PAY HIS DEBT...., no how, no way.

But STILL the man made his decisions, his choices...


Thats the way I see it. He CHOSE to accept the King's mercy to be let out of prison and he CHOSE to go out and to try force someone else to pay their debt, not having compassion and love upon them as the King had had upon him.

...and thus, he was thrown back into prison.

In the end, it WAS his own character that determined his fate. Has nothing to do with "boasting" ... He merely decided how to react to the King's undeserved mercy.


1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Matthew 18:
32: Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?


Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

It is my choice because I was predestined by God to follow the one true, holy, just, and sovereign God. I am perfectly satisfied with God's grace (true grace not based on anything good in me) and mercy.

When you read the Bible arguments I post against Calvinism you just have to ask youself -- "Why does Bob constantly expose the doctrinal flaws and Biblical gaps in Calvinism". And if you are an honest 5 point Calvinist your answer has to be that I am debunking the flaws in Calvinism "because God has sovereignly ordained that I do it". And in that one point I agree with you.

Then you have to ask yourself -- why do you oppose what God has sovereignly ordained?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

T - total depravity of the sinful nature. Unnable to accept Christ.
U - Uncondition Election (read arbitrary selection of the FEW in Matt 7 by God, who cares not for the MANY).
L - Limited Atonement "God so loved the FEW that He gave - Christ appeases an Angry God at Calvary for the FEW"
I - Irresistible Grace (Called and then hauled. You wake one day to discover you are already a Christian so might as well choose Christ as your Savior)
P - Perseverance of the saints. Those who are saved WILL persevere FIRM and steadfast to the end - never backsliding or falling away from the truth. (If ten years from today you do fall away - then your salvation today is retro-deleted).

getting to the "L" ("Limited Grace" - "Limited Gospel" - "Limited Love of God" - ) in the TULIP we find this can be summarized this way.

"God So Loved the WORLD That HE GAVE..." Arminians say "YES REALLY"

Calvinists say "No not REALLY - first you must redefine the term WORLD down to the FEW of Matt 7 that are on the Narrow Road".

In the Calvinist system the key is to rejoice over the saved and "not care at all" for the finally lost.

Not only is it important not to care about the finall lost- but it is also important the that the SELECTION of the saved NOT be based on status, family status, position etc There can be NO difference at all between the lost that God elects to love and those He elects to care nothing for at all.

Hence "the Calvinist Future Scenario" showing God who does NOT LOVE the child of the saved weeping Calvinist parent.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tragic_pizza]

Calvinists say "No not REALLY - first you must redefine the term WORLD down to the FEW of Matt 7 that are on the Narrow Road".

In the Calvinist system the key is to rejoice over the saved and "not care at all" for the finally lost.

That is among the most horrible lies I have ever read on this board. I am truly ashamed to have to dignify this kind of filth with a reply.

Calvinists most certainly do not ""not care at all" for the finally lost." That's the habit of the Fundamentalist, to hate those who dare to believe or do differently than their own narrow legalistic religious doctrine.

Jesus clearly stated that in being lifted up (in context, on the cross), He would draw everyone to Him.

EVERYONE.

"Limited atonement" merely acknowledges that Jesus' salvation is applicable to believers, and the alternative is to believe that every human being ever born, from Billy Graham to Richard Speck, will be saved in the end (Universalism).

So your eggregious lie is twofold: you accuse, unjustly, Calvinism of being a closed little club that no one else is allowed into (which sounds like a lot of Fundamentalist churches to me), and you accuse Arminiams of being Universalist.

Wrong. Terribly, pitifully, horrifyingly wrong, and something you should apologize for.

 

[Claudia_T]

That is among the most horrible lies I have ever read on this board. I am truly ashamed to have to dignify this kind of filth with a reply.

Calvinists most certainly do not ""not care at all" for the finally lost." That's the habit of the Fundamentalist, to hate those who dare to believe or do differently than their own narrow legalistic religious doctrine.

Jesus clearly stated that in being lifted up (in context, on the cross), He would draw everyone to Him.

EVERYONE.

"Limited atonement" merely acknowledges that Jesus' salvation is applicable to believers, and the alternative is to believe that every human being ever born, from Billy Graham to Richard Speck, will be saved in the end (Universalism).

So your eggregious lie is twofold: you accuse, unjustly, Calvinism of being a closed little club that no one else is allowed into (which sounds like a lot of Fundamentalist churches to me), and you accuse Arminiams of being Universalist.

Wrong. Terribly, pitifully, horrifyingly wrong, and something you should apologize for.

Tragic Pizza,


I thought that one of the arguements of the Calvinist thing is that the Bible actually says God hated Esau and others... He pre-ordained some be lost.

So if this is true, and Im not sure, but if it is, then why would you care for the lost?

I mean if they were pre-ordained to be enemies of God and to hate God and so forth? But especially the fact that the Bible says God hates some.


tell me how you understand these verses if it isnt as I just described that I think you understand it? Why have compassion upon those God DOES NOT? wouldnt it be very righteous of you NOT to have compassion upon the lost?


Romans 9:
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


Claudia

 

[Dustin]

When you read the Bible arguments I post against Calvinism you just have to ask youself -- "Why does Bob constantly expose the doctrinal flaws and Biblical gaps in Calvinism". And if you are an honest 5 point Calvinist your answer has to be that I am debunking the flaws in Calvinism "because God has sovereignly ordained that I do it". And in that one point I agree with you.

Then you have to ask yourself -- why do you oppose what God has sovereignly ordained?

In Christ,

Bob

In reality, you're beating up some strange hyper-calvinist strawman. Either that, or the doctrine of God's sovereign grace is some sort of stumbling block to you. As stated by my earlier post to EricB, pride does have a lot to do with denying such biblical fact. The bible is so very clear on all of this, God is sovereign and man is responsible. To some it's a paradox and a stumbling block. The calvinist explanation, free of the mud you're slinging on it, is that all those saved by grace through faith in Christ, chosen before the foundation of the world, will press on, endure, grow in grace and holiness. Those actions are based on what God Himself has done, and not what we have done (by grace you have been saved). Grace, in the biblical sense is unmerited favor. In the bible we are exhorted to strive to be blameless before men, but in Christ we are justified, His righeousness is imputed to us, because we have not any righeousness in our sinful flesh. Why then are we commanded to examine ourselves? "You will know them by thier fruit." as the Lord said. Why did the Lord tell us of judgement day when people will cry Lord , Lord, didn't we do all these great things in Your name? Because there are those in the church that He NEVER knew. He didn't know them one day and forget about them, He NEVER knew them. The people He never knew are called workers of lawlessness. It's pretty clear here they are resonsible for thier sin, but it's also pretty clear that it's Christ, not a man actions, that decides who is righteous and who is not. God is just. In order for God to be just, evil has to be judged and punished. "It's a fearful thing to fall in the hands of the living God." as the writer of Hebrews said. Now God punishing evil is God showing His justice, His divine attributes, His power and His glory. If you see sin the way God sees sin then the idea of people being for punished for that sin isn't a horrible thing, but something that must to be done. If people are totally depraved, if we are inwardly enemies of God, then how can we make a decision for Christ? We can't, not until God works grace and faith in us, giving us what we don't have or deserve. Why then, do some believe and others not, because God has not worked in those that don't believe. They are slaves to sin, and pride, and self. That's why Christ focused so much on the inner man. I don't know if my point has been made, my post is all over the place, but my conscience is clear. Regarding other things you said, God may certainly have ordained you to sling mud at the idea of sovereign grace, and biblically, you are responsible for your actions...then why do I oppose? Because you're position on the matter is prideful and man -centered and the Lord did tell us, "You will know them by thier fruit." You Bob, the only reason you are saved, if you are saved (it's not for me to decide or declare, I sincerely hope that's the case), is because of unmerited grace given to you not because of your decision, or keeping a Saturday Sabbath, or how you outwardly keep the Ten Commandments. Why is that so so so hard for you to understand????!?!?!! God saved you Bob, Bob's decision didn't save Bob. The grace of God lead you to that decision. You were ordained before the foundation of the world to make it. Is it that hard to understand? If the Bible is true (it is), and if these things are so (and they are, God as my witness), then why do you argue against it? WHY? God forbid that any such issue go undiscussed. If there is error then it must be dealt with, not so I can say "I debunked Bob, I debunked Armminianism" but that others might not fall into that error. Again, I say all this because I love you and the people on this board. Please, please, read it all and think about it. Is is really so hard to understand?

Grace and Peace be with you all in Christ,
Dustin

 

[Dustin]

getting to the "L" ("Limited Grace" - "Limited Gospel" - "Limited Love of God" - ) in the TULIP we find this can be summarized this way.

"God So Loved the WORLD That HE GAVE..." Arminians say "YES REALLY"

Calvinists say "No not REALLY - first you must redefine the term WORLD down to the FEW of Matt 7 that are on the Narrow Road".

In the Calvinist system the key is to rejoice over the saved and "not care at all" for the finally lost.

Not only is it important not to care about the finall lost- but it is also important the that the SELECTION of the saved NOT be based on status, family status, position etc There can be NO difference at all between the lost that God elects to love and those He elects to care nothing for at all.

Hence "the Calvinist Future Scenario" showing God who does NOT LOVE the child of the saved weeping Calvinist parent.

In Christ,

Bob

I'm a Calvinist, and I care for the lost. Problem is, the lost don't care at all.

 

[webdog]

This is also false. God cannot be omnipotent if man's choice over-rides God's will.

Joseph Botwinick

Thanks for being God's spokesperson.

 

[Claudia_T]

It looks to me like the Calvinist people are trying to make it seem like we are saying we are not saved solely on the merits of God's grace... but that isnt true.

But its not like God just goes into a room and arbitrarily decides to save every fifth person in 10 rows... just cause He feels like it

 

[Eric B]

It is, IMO, a bad rule. If the administration, however, chooses to suspend me for an honest answer, then glory to God and I am willing to take it.

If you don't want an honest answer, you probably shouldn't ask the question.

Joseph Botwinick

It is only to the Glory of God if your premise is right. But the irony is that it isn't.
And precisely the point; nobody ever asked you what you thought of "the god of the Arminians". You keep blurting that out on your own, in a very uncalled for fashion.

I, for one, would much rather be a robot of a holy and just God who is sovereign in all matters than be the follower of a genie in a bottle.

What if YOU were one of the ones "not called", "passed over", and thus preordained to be "lost"? (Especially since Calvin tought that God gives reprobates a "false faith" which He takes away, so they can be "lost" and go to Hell).

Arminians cannot say the same with all honesty. In the end, their salvation was based on something good deep down inside of themselves that decided to choose Christ, and they are the most boastful lot I have ever met.

And you seem to be boasting more than any Arminian here; that you are "chosen" while those who die without Christ others are not, and that other Christians worship a false god..

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

It is only to the Glory of God if your premise is right. But the irony is that it isn't.

And precisely the point; nobody ever asked you what you thought of "the god of the Arminians". You keep blurting that out on your own, in a very uncalled for fashion.

Likewise, nobody ever asked you or anybody here what they thought of Calvinism. Yet you and others keep blurting it out on your own, in a very uncalled for fashion. Get over it. I don't have to be asked what I think to give an opinion on an open forum. If you can't handle honest discussion, might I suggest some other forum such as Beliefnet and Thinking Baptists where using one's emotions instead of their brains exclusively is a prerequisite to posting there?

What if YOU were one of the ones "not called", "passed over", and thus preordained to be "lost"? (Especially since Calvin tought that God gives reprobates a "false faith" which He takes away, so they can be "lost" and go to Hell).

If I were, none of this would even matter to me since I would be an enemy of God. The lost don't care about their spiritual condition and don't love God. That is where the grace of God (unmerited favor) comes in.

And you seem to be boasting more than any Arminian here; that you are "chosen" while those who die without Christ others are not, and that other Christians worship a false god..

The difference is that, like the old hymn, "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" says, my boasting is not meant to glorify myself and the wisdom of my free will, but to glorify God and his holy and just choice to save me from my sin. It magnifies the grace of God, not myself.

Forbid it Lord that I should boast, save in the death of Christ my God.

9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Tragic Pizza,


I thought that one of the arguements of the Calvinist thing is that the Bible actually says God hated Esau and others... He pre-ordained some be lost.

So if this is true, and Im not sure, but if it is, then why would you care for the lost?

Because God told us to. Pure and simple. His judgment is his own. That is not for me to judge and take vengeance. It is for me to love God and my fellow man.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[BobRyan]

I'm a Calvinist, and I care for the lost. Problem is, the lost don't care at all.

Well first of all - I don't differ as much with 3-point Calvinists as I do with 5-point Calvinists. So assuming you ARE a 3 point Calvinist who DOES care about the "finally lost" even if they are one of your own family members -- then we share somewhat the same view on a few of these points.

But if you are 5 points -- the FULL TULIP -- and you still care about the finally lost --

Well then let me know where you would be in this Calvinist future scenario --



The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

<You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?>

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast God flatly denies the doctrines of 5 Point Calvinism (at least a few of them) when He says

"God so Loved the WORLD" John 3:16 -- yes REALLY
"God is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"
2Peter 3
"God sends the Spirit to CONVICT THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16
God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" unto Him John 12:32

 

[annsni]

OK - Coming into this a little late and I'm not sure which side I stand on - I'm kind of standing with a foot on either side. I spoke to my husband about this recently and we discussed the two sides and he said a smart thing, I think. There are great men of God on both sides of this argument and there are Scriptures that support both sides. This could just be something that we obey God here on earth about preaching the Good News to all men - and leave the results to God.

BUT, a few verses that come to mind on this issue in support of the Calvinist side are:

Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.?"

2 Thess. 2:13 "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. "

Also, John 6:44 says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." If we can't come to the Jesus unless the Father draws him, doesn't that have something to do with the 'elect'? If the Father draws someone, do you think he can then say "no"?

 

[BobRyan]

To that last point --

"I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto ME" John 12:32.

Even in the strictist most extreme Calvinism the "Drawing" of God enables with depravity disables by way of choice.

That means that the Calvinist position against Arminans CAN'T be that they don't think that those drawn by God -- CAN CHOOSE.

Game over.