Calvinism -TULIP

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: Also, John 6:44 says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." If we can't come to the Jesus unless the Father draws him, doesn't that have something to do with the 'elect'? If the Father draws someone, do you think he can then say "no"?

HP: As a matter of fact I do………….just as Scripture plainly illustrates.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[Amy.G]

HP: As a matter of fact I do………….just as Scripture plainly illustrates.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Also, if we could not say no, how was Adam able to sin?

 

[annsni]

HP: As a matter of fact I do………….just as Scripture plainly illustrates.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

See, I'm reading that verse totally differently! I read it as Israel refusing God's prophets and thus refusing God's protection. I don't see that as turning away God's direct calling of an individual.

Romans 9:14-24 is pretty clear -

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Grudem's Systematic Theology says:
"This objection of unfairness takes a slightly different form when people say that it is unfair of God to save some people and not to save all. This objection is based on an idea of justice among human beings that we sense intuitively. We recognize in human affairs that it is right to treat equal people in an equal way. Therefore it seems intuitively appropriate to us to say that if God is going to save some sinners he ought to save all sinners. But in answer to this objection it must be said that we really have no right to impose on God our intuitive sense of what is appropriate among human beings. Whenever Scripture begins to treat this area it goes back to God's sovereignty as Creator and says He has a right to do with His creation as He wills (see Romans 9:19-20). If God ultimately decided to create some creatures to be saved and others not to be saved, then that was HIs sovereign choice, and we have no moral or scriptural basis on which we can insist that it was not fair" (Chapter 32, Election and Reprobation, page 683)

 

[annsni]

Also, if we could not say no, how was Adam able to sin?

How are ANY of us able to sin - even in Christ??

 

[Amy.G]

How are ANY of us able to sin - even in Christ??

Because we choose to. God does not force us to do good or to do evil.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: See, I'm reading that verse totally differently! I read it as Israel refusing God's prophets and thus refusing God's protection. I don't see that as turning away God's direct calling of an individual.

HP: So are we to conclude that God cannot or does not draw men via His prophets? What is Israel other than a nation consisting of individual people???? Does not the verse in question picture God desiring to draw them under His guidance and protection while they are fully able and obviously willing to spurn His offers?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Also, if we could not say no, how was Adam able to sin?

HP: You are making an excellent point. The idea that God would punish one for failing to do what he could not do, or praising one for something he had no choice in, is simply preposterous in light of any semblance of justice. If it were as some are stating it is, God would be the picture of a respecter of persons, which He is not.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Tragic Pizza,


I thought that one of the arguements of the Calvinist thing is that the Bible actually says God hated Esau and others... He pre-ordained some be lost.

So if this is true, and Im not sure, but if it is, then why would you care for the lost?

I mean if they were pre-ordained to be enemies of God and to hate God and so forth? But especially the fact that the Bible says God hates some.


tell me how you understand these verses if it isnt as I just described that I think you understand it? Why have compassion upon those God DOES NOT? wouldnt it be very righteous of you NOT to have compassion upon the lost?


Romans 9:
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


Claudia

Tell me, Claudia, how you know who God has compassion on and who God does not have compassion on?

Is it the faithful Christian couple I know who lost both their children, thirteen months apart, in separate auto accidents along the same stretch of road?

Perhaps it's the murderer I knew, who was electrocuted for his crime... ignoring the fact that he repented and was a committed Christian when the state threw the switch.

Who's on your list, Claudia? Are you certain that it's the same as God's list?

I'm not. That's the point; I do not - and cannot - fathom the mind of God, or anticipate who God will have mercy upon. All I can do is assume, prayerfully, that Jesus died for all creation, and treat all of creation in that manner. To do anything less would make me no better than the Fundamentalist freakshows from Westover Baptist.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: How are ANY of us able to sin - even in Christ??

HP: Why would you bring up such a point? If there was not a man alive that was without sin, how does that prove that man cannot with the help of the Holy Spirit live just as Scripture promises? It would appear to me that you are trying to judge the Word of God by either your experience or the experience of others. “2Co 10:12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.”

We are to preach the WORD, not necessarily ones personal experience. What does Scripture say? “1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

How many times does the apostle Paul tell us that we are made free from sin? When we succumb to the lies of the enemy, and determine that God cannot keep from sin those that He delivered, and that God’s grace is not sufficient for us to free us from the bondage of sin, or that in this present world we cannot live consistently as the Word of God says we can, we are on shaky ground at best. “Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” There is no way you can live righteously and godly in this present world while in the daily commission of sin.

“Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.” We need to keep our eyes on what is possible through the help of the Holy Spirit, and stop judging our walk according to our past failures or the failures of others.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

“1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

We have discussed the ability or lack thereof to resist God’s drawing on this thread. Every time we sin it is living proof, according to this Scripture, that man indeed can and does resist God’s drawing and will for our lives.

 

[Claudia_T]

Tragic,

I understand now how you feel about that. Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense to me.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

well if the Bible says HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS then of course we can resist the Holy Spirit.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit happens when we keep on resisting till the point of no return.

Heb:3:15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb:4:7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


I dont know how we can resist the Holy Ghost if God doesnt try to save those people anyway:

Acts:7:51: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

We are commanded to love God and our neighbor as ourselves. In marriage we are to love our spouse. If one had the attitude that he or she could not go a day without sinning against their spouse, who would claim such a one honestly loves their spouse? If one felt that it is impossible to live a day without violating the law of love in a marriage, who would even honestly try to live such a consistent life of love?

It is a truth that no man can strive to do that which one believes to be a natural impossibility. You cannot strive to live holy and righteous before the Lord while believing it is a natural impossibility. Without striving to live as God commands us, who can honestly say they love God?

I am NOT trying to shower condemnation on anyone. I share this as food for thought.

“Examine yourself, and see if ye be of the faith.”

 

[annsni]

Well, of course we are to be holy - I Peter 1:15-16 says "but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." I see as the calling of the elect and sanctification as two different things - one follows the other. I haven't been able to fully follow all of this but I don't think anyone has explained the verses I listed yesterday where Scripture DOES say that GOD chooses us, that we are "called", that there is an "elect". Please understand that I'm not Calvinist fully but I DO see that there is a lot of evidence for it - yet there is a lot of evidence for Arminianism too. I, in my humaness cannot say that it's 'not fair' or 'mean' for God to call some and not others - and I'm not convinced fully that we do not play some kind of a part in this - I'm not sure. As I said in a previous post, there are great arguments on either side and I don't think necessarily that it's only one or the other. I know my senior pastor for years has been on the side of free-will but as he's aging and getting more experience, he told me the other day that he's really beginning to think that the idea of the 'elect' is more and more making sense.

2 things though. Heavenly Pilgrim just said “Examine yourself, and see if ye be of the faith.” and it makes me think of 2 important things I say to myself with regards to things like this - "What is the state of your soul in regards to this matter?" - Where is MY heart in this? I'm saved. I am sure. I know that I am a child of God. Then what does God command us to do? To go make disciples of all nations - so my job is to preach the gospel to everyone. I don't know if it's free-will or the elect but God calls me to do something and I will obey Him. What difference it makes isn't up to me - it's up to God.

The second thing is a funny about this whole thing. A dear friend of our my mom's used to go to our church and her husband would come too although he never was saved. He just kept saying "no" to every call, every discussion - everything. Finally one day a few years ago (now, this is easily 35 years in the making), my pastor went to him and said "You know, Martin. I think you CAN'T be saved! I think after all of these years of hearing the Gospel and refusing it, maybe you're not one of the elect and just can't be saved." LOL - Started quite the discussion ending in this man FINALLY turning his life over to Christ and he really has been a changed man since then. So, was it that God has now called him and he responded or was it really his choice? I have no idea but I DO know the angels sang that day (and I cried). LOL!

 

[webdog]

Because God told us to. Pure and simple. His judgment is his own. That is not for me to judge and take vengeance. It is for me to love God and my fellow man.

Joseph Botwinick

So you love only out of command by God? Forced love is not love at all...and goes against the very meaning of what love is.

 

[annsni]

So you love only out of command by God? Forced love is not love at all...and goes against the very meaning of what love is.

No, the question was why do we care about our fellow human beings? Because God told us to. Remember that we love God because He first loved us. And the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourselves. Is that wrong?

 

[webdog]

No, the question was why do we care about our fellow human beings? Because God told us to. Remember that we love God because He first loved us. And the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbor as ourselves. Is that wrong?

No, but the text doesn't say "love your neighbor" and end there. This is a given. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves, and love God with all our heart, soul and mind. I believe the emphasis in not on love, but what follows after that in the text, as love is a choice to be made in the first place. If there was no choice to be made in regards to love, men loving darkness rather than light would be caused by God, not man. The love of sin, therefore, would be put upon man by God, making God the author of sin.

 

[annsni]

No, but the text doesn't say "love your neighbor" and end there. This is a given. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves, and love God with all our heart, soul and mind. I believe the emphasis in not on love, but what follows after that in the text, as love is a choice to be made in the first place. If there was no choice to be made in regards to love, men loving darkness rather than light would be caused by God, not man. The love of sin, therefore, would be put upon man by God, making God the author of sin.

But then what about these Scriptures?

Romans 11:7-8 - What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day."

1 Peter 2:8 - They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

 

[Claudia_T]

But then what about these Scriptures?

Romans 11:7-8 - What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day."

1 Peter 2:8 - They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

It is a figure of speech. If God tells and shows the Pharoah something and the Pharoah decides he doesnt want to obey God then God withdraws His Spirit from Pharoah...

SO did God harden Pharoah's heart or did Pharoah himself harden his heart?


Ex:7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Ex:8:15: But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.


One verse says God hardened it the other says Pharoah hardened his own heart. BOTH are true.

Heb:3:13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb:3:15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Can anybody just please explain to me the basics of Calvinism and T.U.L.I.P. and what exactly that means?

Is the entire thing about that we cant do anything at all of ourselves? Does it have anything to do with Predestination?

Claudia

Claudia, has your question ever taken a life of its own, or what??? If you are serious in your questions (and I believe you are), I would suggest that you read a lot on your own. R.C. Sproul has two excellent books on the topic -- Chosen by God and Willing to Believe: The Controversy over Free Will.

Listed below is a quote from one of Spurgeon's sermons (one of history's great Baptist preachers). You can find the entire sermon at http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus.