Are you looking for the text stating the atonement was made on behalf of the entire nation, believe and unbeliever alike?
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Calvinism vs. DoG??
- Thread starter convicted1
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As you show rightly here, pertaining to salvation they cannot be separated...grace through faith. He enables us to believe by what He has done for us, not by making us alive first.
Abraham was credited with righteousness through faith. It is speculative to state that God sovereignly choosing him as the means to form a people for Himself meant that he was chosen for salvation. What we know from Genesis 12 is God told Abram to go, and Abram went. It doesn't state Abram was made alive to respond to him...in fact taking Lot was not part of God's command, he did that on his own. It might make for a good thread to discuss when Abraham was justified. Was it the initial call to leave his homeland? The account with Isaac? Inquiring minds want to know...
preacher4truth
Active Member
As you show rightly here, pertaining to salvation they cannot be separated...grace through faith. He enables us to believe by what He has done for us, not by making us alive first.
Abraham was credited with righteousness through faith. It is speculative to state that God sovereignly choosing him as the means to form a people for Himself meant that he was chosen for salvation. What we know from Genesis 12 is God told Abram to go, and Abram went. It doesn't state Abram was made alive to respond to him...in fact taking Lot was not part of God's command, he did that on his own. It might make for a good thread to discuss when Abraham was justified. Was it the initial call to leave his homeland? The account with Isaac? Inquiring minds want to know...
It wasn't until after all you stated. God called Abram, Genesis 12, and he responded to the Word of God. He couldn't have done so otherwise. Why do we say that people seek after God on their own? He certainly wasn't, neither do I believe he was capable.
God did all of it for Abram. So God was working in his life and leading him along. Does God do this prior to saving folks? Lead them? He did this to Paul, as we see in Acts 9.
God then brought him to a place of what I will call desperation and ultimate concern (a phrase/theory used by Paul Tillich to describe where God brings us before we can be saved) seeing that in himself all this was impossible, and so he questioned God in Genesis 15:1-6. Without God all of this was impossible. Without Him we can do nothing.
Not until God spoke in verse 1 did Abram respond. I believe His Words gave him the ability to respond, for this was not blind faith, the words gave him life and faith and ability to grasp this promise, but only due to God. Yet Abram still did not know how. All he saw was doubt, and his inability. He wasn't trying to will himself to believe (...it is not of him that willeth...&c Romans 9:16) all he had to give God was his doubt, then finally his faith, but only because of God's Word enabling him to have that faith.
Also, the word willeth (Romans 9:16) here is to choose, to desire, to determine it &c. All the choosing, all the working, all the enabling, all the calling, and all the glory goes only to God alone.
So I understand what Calvinism says and the avenue its proponents take when they hear and see so many laying claim on salvation, as if they willed it to be so, or chose this themselves. That is not truly biblical, as Romans 9 so beautifully and soberly lays it out.
But God already had spoken and already in His Sovereignty swore to Abram what He Himself would do. Then and only then, after God made the promise again, after Abram asked how and expressed his doubt and inability, was he able to respond to God through God's quickening Word. At that moment, Gen. 15:6, God accounted Abrams faith as righteousnessness.
This whole thing was a process.
Also, did not God bid him come to Him before he could? I also believe He enabled him to do so.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
How did I question your salvation?
If that's your position, it's fine. It's wrong, though. Regeneration is eternal life regardless how you redefine it. If you state you cannot have eternal life outside of Christ, you don't truly believe regeneration precedes salvation.
The problem is that it is not a false accusation. Rather than seek to understand my position (and give me the benefit of the doubt therein), you called me a blasphemer.
I said: "Regeneration and salvation are not synonymous" (see here) in a reply to Winman.
Obviously misunderstanding my position, you said: (see here)
Absolutely they are synonymous! Can you have one without the other? No. Can you have spiritual life and not be saved? No. Can you be saved without having eternal life? NO.
The notion you can have eternal life and not be in Christ is blasphemous.
I replied: (see here)The notion you can have eternal life and not be in Christ is blasphemous.
Are you calling my salvation into question because of your misunderstanding of my position?
My position is: Regeneration precedes and is a necessary precursor to salvation. Regeneration necessarily leads to salvation. Regeneration is not synonymous with Salvation. Therefore, it is not blasphemous at all to hold my position because I am no, nor have I ever, stated that one can have eternal life outside of Christ.
And then you deny calling me a blasphemer...which is ipso facto calling into question my salvation, especially when you consider that the Apostle Paul referred to himself in his pre-salvation state as a "blasphemer."My position is: Regeneration precedes and is a necessary precursor to salvation. Regeneration necessarily leads to salvation. Regeneration is not synonymous with Salvation. Therefore, it is not blasphemous at all to hold my position because I am no, nor have I ever, stated that one can have eternal life outside of Christ.
[12] I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, [13] though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, [14] and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 1:12-14 ESV)
What is truly becoming tiresome is your statement which call into question the salvation of persons who you should be referring to as brother or sister. Then, to add insult to injury, you make feeble attempts to say "I didn't do that..." If you could just be nicer....
The Archangel
I'm looking for a text that states that the atonement was only applied to those who had faith.
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Yes...but. The discussion of Romans 3, especially the verse you quote, is dealing with faith as opposed to the works of the Law. So, when Paul writes that the propitiation is to be received by faith, he is saying "faith opposed to works."
I just wanted to point out the context.
Blessings,
The Archangel
I do believe God was putting an influence on Paul, but it is clear Paul was stubbornly resisting God. He was present when Stephen was stoned and apparently officiated over Stephen's stoning (Acts 7:58). He persecuted and made havock of the early church, the scriptures itself calling it a "great persecution" (Acts 8:1-3). Saul (Paul) was the leader of this great persecution.
When the Lord appeared to Saul (Paul), he did not immediately submit to the Lord, his first question was "Who art thou, Lord?", hardly the question you would expect from someone who was regenerated. Jesus answered that "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks". So, at that very moment Paul was still persecuting Jesus and stubbornly resisting him, again, hardly what you would expect from a regenerated person.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, when Paul heard Jesus identify himself, only then did he submit to Jesus.
If anything, Paul's story teaches that a person can resist God's grace to a great degree.
preacher4truth
Active Member
My point wasn't regeneration. Just simply that God's hand was at work a long while in peoples lives in Scripture prior to bringing them to certain points. I know He was at work in mine, convicting me of sin.
I take great comfort seeing His same ways at work with Abram, Paul, Jacob, and others.
Irresistible grace could have a better tag though. I believe in this doctrine. As far as regeneration, to be honest, I don't know enough about the stance on that from Reformed views/Calvinism.
My point wasn't regeneration. Just simply that God's hand was at work a long while in peoples lives in Scripture prior to bringing them to certain points. I know He was at work in mine, convicting me of sin.
I take great comfort seeing His same ways at work with Abram, Paul, Jacob, and others.
Irresistible grace could have a better tag though. I believe in this doctrine. As far as regeneration, to be honest, I don't know enough about the stance on that from Reformed views/Calvinism.
Oh, I agree that God works in a persons life. I was raised in a very non-religious family. We had moved to Panama City, Florida, where we only lived a very short time. But three houses down the street was a family who were former missionaries in Afghanistan, and they had a son my age. I became friends with their son just naturally playing in the neighborhood. Well, one Sunday my friend's mom asked if she could take me to church. My father allowed it and that day I heard a sermon on hell. It terrified me, and at the invitation I went down and received Jesus as my Saviour.
We moved right after that. I didn't attend church again for many years, in fact I didn't attend until I was grown and married. But I got saved that day.
I have always believed that God led my family to move to that neighborhood for that short time just so I could meet my friend, be invited to church and get saved. I really believe that.
I think it is obvious that I do not agree with Calvinism's concept of a person being regenerated in order to have the ability to believe. You cannot possibly have spiritual life of any sort until you have already believed first.
The scriptures say that if you have not believed on Jesus, then God's wrath abides on you. How in the world can God show grace to someone when his wrath abides on them?
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36 is clear, he that believeth not the Son shall not see life. So how can you have spiritual life until after you believe? But this verse also says that for the person who has not believed that God's wrath abideth on them. How in the world can God show grace to someone when his wrath abides on them?
Grace means favor, and the scriptures are clear that you cannot have God's favor until you first believe.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Again, grace means favor, and Hebrews 11:6 says it is impossible to please God without faith. You cannot have God's grace or favor until you first believe, because until you believe on his Son, God's wrath abides on you.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Yeah, I hear what you're saying bro. Did Abram have God's favor prior to God saying in 15:6 that he accounted it to him for righteousness?
Some say he was safe, but not yet saved.
But did he have God's favor in 12:1 when he was called?
psalms109:31
Active Member
2 Chronicles 16:
9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.”
9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him. You have done a foolish thing, and from now on you will be at war.”
I believe he certainly had God's favor. You see, I believe the scriptures clearly show God knows ahead of time who will believe him. God knew Abraham would believe him by foreknowledge, and therefore called him to leave his home. Abraham obeyed. So, Abraham believed God from the first.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Romans 8:29-30 says for whom God did foreknow, them he also called. And Hebrews 11:8 shows this.
Another example of this is Nathaniel. Jesus knew he would believe.
John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Philip and Nathaniel believed the OT scriptures. They were looking for the Christ, the Messiah, the Prophet Moses spoke of.
Notice in verse 48 that Nathaniel was surprised that Jesus knew him. He asked, "Whence knowest thou me?"
And notice Jesus answered that even before he was "called" by his brother, that Jesus saw him.
Jesus knew eleven of the disciples would believe him and one would not. He chose the eleven to serve him, he chose Judas because he knew he would betray him.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
There are many examples that show God foreknows who will believe him.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yes. Amen! And favor was shown to Abram prior to 15:6. We refer to this as grace today. I think it is also safe to say that God leading Him along, kept Him safe prior to his full conversion. I think this still happens today. God is the same yesterday, today, forever. Does grace come first, then faith? By grace are you saved through faith? Interesting.
Thanks.
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Well, the scriptures say God's grace "appeared" to everyone.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Now, this does not mean you will receive God's grace, it means that God has revealed or showed his grace to all men. But to receive God's grace you must have faith.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Verse 1 says we have peace with God through faith in Jesus. And that is exactly what John 3:36 shows as well. If you do not believe in Jesus, then God's wrath abides on you. But if you believe on Jesus you have peace with God.
But note importantly in verse 2 it says "we have access by faith into this grace".
Calvinists teach you receive faith through grace, but the scriptures teach you receive or access grace by faith.
Calvinism gets everything backwards. They teach you have life before you can believe, the scriptures say you must believe to have life. Calvinists say you must have grace to receive faith, the scriptures say you have access into grace by faith.
You can't have God's grace without faith. If you do not have faith it is impossible to please God, and God's wrath abides on you. So faith must precede receiving grace.
God shows his grace to all men, but only those with faith have access into it.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I see.
The grace that appeared to all men refers specifically to what event? I think it means the Cross of Christ.
It looks like it was grace first to me throughout Scriptures. Not faith first.
I see what you are saying that Calvinism has it backwards (not that I accept or agree with it) but Moses, Abram and many others show us it was grace first, then came faith. I agree to disagree with you here on this if possible to remain in dialogue.
- Blessings
psalms109:31
Active Member
Faith
First we must realize that Faith a noun, an object. This object comes from God through the words of Jesus about Him.
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Then the words of Jesus is Spirit and life.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
This brings a dead man to life with two roads to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.
Without the words of Jesus we are dead, if we reject it we are nothing but dead men. Now we are called to trust in Jesus which is an action that comes from us, not God.
We are saved by grace through Faith.
First we must realize that Faith a noun, an object. This object comes from God through the words of Jesus about Him.
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Then the words of Jesus is Spirit and life.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
This brings a dead man to life with two roads to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned.
Without the words of Jesus we are dead, if we reject it we are nothing but dead men. Now we are called to trust in Jesus which is an action that comes from us, not God.
We are saved by grace through Faith.
God shows his grace first. But you must have faith to have access "into" this grace.
None of us could have faith in Jesus unless God had revealed Jesus to us. Paul asked how any man could believe in whom they have not heard.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
This is really not complicated, and I do not understand why some have so much difficulty in seeing how this works. God has been showing his grace to us from the beginning, when he made the promise to Adam and Eve that he would send someone from the woman's seed to bruise the seed of the serpent. This was the first promise concerning Jesus. The whole Bible is about Jesus.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to man from the garden of Eden. The entire scriptures testify of Jesus, the Saviour to come.
But why couldn't these men receive this grace that appeared to them? Read the very next verse.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
They didn't receive this grace because they refuse to come to Jesus. And why do they refuse to come? Because you "must" have faith to come to God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
You can't come to God or Jesus if you don't believe in them. Oh, you can hear about Jesus your whole life, you can go to church everytime the doors are open. But unless you sincerely believe in Jesus you will never come to him. And that is exactly what Paul said in Romans 10.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Paul said whosoever calls on Jesus for salvation shall be saved, but then he asks, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?"
If you don't sincerely believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose again, you will never call on him. You just won't. I have never called on
Allah of the Islam faith. Why? Because I sincerely believe that is a false religion. I do not believe it the truth. I would never call on Allah.
God's word is what enables us to believe in Jesus. If God did not reveal Jesus to us by his Holy Word, we would all be hopelessly lost forever. Man does not have the ability to know the spiritual truth of Jesus Christ of himself, it must be revealed to him by God for him to know it.
But... just because God has revealed Jesus does not mean you will come to him. Many millions of people have heard the gospel and rejected it.
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One thing that I do, is test the spirits, which is talked about in 1 John 4:1-6, and you sir have a good spirit about you. Like you said, we as Christians, should all have the same goal: spreading the Gospel and worshipping God. I'm glad there are all types of Christians, as long as we have that common goal. It's a good thing that all preachers, teachers, etc. are not the same. My preaching will reach people that others will not and vice versa. It takes all types to do this work that God has entrusted us to carry out. As far as understanding parables or just understanding, in general, I believe, if you don't have a receiving spirit about you, then you won't take what God gives you. In the scripture that you used in Matt. I believe Christ was talking about a people that just didn't want to understand. Even his own disciples didn't understand a lot of his teachings and ,at times, this seemed to frustrate Christ. Why didn't they understand? Because they either didn't want to understand, didn't like the answer, or was not were they needed to be spiritually at the time. In that same chapter of Matthew, look at verse 9: Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.....Some people just don't want to hear what is being said. That's why everyone will not receive the Gospel and be saved, because they don't have a receiving heart. Spiritual deafness.
God Bless and Have a Merry, Merry Christmas