Point: Steve (that is NOT sarcastic)
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Calvinism/Why God Hates
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Point: Steve (that is NOT sarcastic)
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I thought the question was addressed to your Calvinist brothers and sisters!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I believe that is well said Brian! If God had not chosen to save some none could be saved!
"Gotta watch that spell checker though."
Must have sent that from my phone in haste, but I am a miserable speller as well as a miserable sinner.
It is the former. It is what Calvinist here proclaim.
I will let Icon and convicted1 give you more clues if they are willing. They are the chief ones who promote God's hatred for the non-elect.
convicted1
Guest
God poured out wrath on His Son in our stead...
convicted1
Guest
God saw it all before He created the world...His works were known from the foundation of the world...the sooner you figure this out...
There is technically no place in the Bible that says anything about God hating the "non-elect". The reference to God loving Jacob and hating Esau is meant to show the disparity between his love for those he have chosen and the rest of the world.
While I am leery about the classification Calvinist and Arminian, I feel like it's hard to hold to a verbal plenary view of Scripture and not be a Calvinist. So then I classify myself as a Calvinist (or at least Calvinistic) yet I find the idea of God hating all except the elect non-scriptural.
While I am leery about the classification Calvinist and Arminian, I feel like it's hard to hold to a verbal plenary view of Scripture and not be a Calvinist. So then I classify myself as a Calvinist (or at least Calvinistic) yet I find the idea of God hating all except the elect non-scriptural.
convicted1
Guest
This is something I've waffled on in regards to how God deals with sinners, both non-elect and elect(prior to drawing them). God is the same and never changes, and both sides agree with that. The bible states that even the plowing of the wicked is sin. I do not hold to 'eternal justification', but God never changes, so does hating us and then loving us and drawing us impugn His immutability? I can see grounds for providential love as well as grounds for hatred of the non-elect. This is something I need to further study, but I lean heavily towards a hatred for the non-elect...
convicted1
Guest
μισέω
miseō
I--to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
II--to be hated, detested
This is the greek word for 'hate' in Rom. 9:13...
Now, is this to be taken literally or figuratively?
miseō
I--to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
II--to be hated, detested
This is the greek word for 'hate' in Rom. 9:13...
Now, is this to be taken literally or figuratively?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
[4] For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. [5] The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. [6] You destroy those who speak lies; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. (Psalm 5:3-6 ESV)
And
[5] The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. (Psalm 11:5 ESV)
The Archangel
A great question to ask before attacking this text exegetically is....does God have a soul?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
convicted1
Guest
נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh
--soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
--that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
--living being
--living being (with life in the blood)
--the man himself, self, person or individual
--seat of the appetites
--seat of emotions and passions, the man himself, self, person or individual
--seat of the appetites
--seat of emotions and passions
--activity of mind
--dubious
--the man himself, self, person or individual
--seat of the appetites
--seat of emotions and passions
--activity of mind
--dubious
--activity of the will
--dubious
--activity of the character
--dubiousctivity of the will
--dubious
--activity of the character
--dubious
I tend to think the 'soul' here in Psalms 11:5 has to do with His passions, His emotions.
How can this be?
DHK proclaimed there is not one verse that teaches this....do you think he meant there are more than 1 verse that teaches it?:laugh::laugh::laugh:
So then, you hold the position that the 'why' God hates the non-elect is because He foreseen their wickedness. So when the Arminian says God foresaw the choice made by those who would believe, the Arminian is well within the same view as held by the Calvinist to understand 'why' God chose some and not others.
Now I believe Icon disagrees with you here, not certain, but I believe he sees God hating or loving based on absolutely nothing foreseen. He can correct me if I misunderstood him.
I never thought to view it that way. :thumbs:
convicted1
Guest
Steaver, whatever and however God hates I am not truly sure how He came to that, He being God and I a grasshopper. All I can go by is His words written in the bible.
TBS, when He hates, it's a holy hatred. When He pours out His wrath, it's a holy wrath. When He is jealous, it's a holy jealousy. When He takes vengence, it's a holy vengence.
If/when we do this/these, we sin. If/when God does this/these, He sins not.
Look, I don't have all the answers. Don't expect me to give you an ironclad answer to every question you throw at me.
I lean heavily towards God hating the non-elect, but not entirely there just yet...
steaver
Steaver let me ask you a question.
What do you hope to gain by seeking to find a divide or to cause division between one Cal and another?
Forget for a second that we hold opposite theology from you.
I if I write something in a wrong way, or mis-speak on an issue what do you gain by pressing others to harp on a Mistake or error.
This is why I think you are mostly not sincere when you question us.
You are like a mosquito buzzing around trying to find an opening in the screen so you can bite someone.
God is God. We are totally dependent on Him to reveal who He is and what He does. There are not many times where God explains in detail His thoughts.
He reveals certain things, and others are known only to Himself;
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen
You ask on the secret things, we offer what we see, and yet you seek to go back and forth like the mosquito.
You tried to get AA to go after me, you tried to get all the cals to go after me, now you want me to go after Con 1....for what purpose?
Do you really want truth? The truth is we are all at different levels of growth.
When I can I seek out godly persons to run ideas by to trim off what I hold that should be left behind.
God does not need plan B at anytime...He is God. He never has to learn anything. He never has to adjust. He is God.
When he considers the whole Human race as fallen....and for His own Holy , wise purpose, elects a multitude of people in His Son.....whatever the process is...however we can speak of it....It is never because he has to look down a time tunnel and learn something, and gain knowledge.
God has perfect complete knowledge.
If any of us do not state this before each sentence does not mean we do not believe it. In trying to give you an answer in a helpful way, you look to twist with evil motive...it seems. If that is not what you are doing, say so.
AA might not like how I express some of my views. I believe he would agree with most of what I believe, but I am more than sure that how I express myself sometimes would make him cringe and think to himself...I would never say it that way!
I agree with most things he posts also. He has on one or two occasions said things in a way that I would not. So What??? He can express himself in a way that he is comfortable with, and I can do the same.
Do I hold you accountable for the error DHK posts??? If you agree with his error than I would. When DHK errors I speak directly to him
[as you see quite often:thumbsup:]
If I or Con 1, or any cal say something inconsistent, ask for clarification...do not be the mosquito:thumbsup:
I do not read Con 1 as being inconsistent, I think he was trying to be helpful toward you, not worried about his wording as much as trying to help you see what has eluded you.
here he offers that same idea to you;
see it!
Steaver let me ask you a question.
What do you hope to gain by seeking to find a divide or to cause division between one Cal and another?
Forget for a second that we hold opposite theology from you.
I if I write something in a wrong way, or mis-speak on an issue what do you gain by pressing others to harp on a Mistake or error.
This is why I think you are mostly not sincere when you question us.
You are like a mosquito buzzing around trying to find an opening in the screen so you can bite someone.
God is God. We are totally dependent on Him to reveal who He is and what He does. There are not many times where God explains in detail His thoughts.
He reveals certain things, and others are known only to Himself;
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen
You ask on the secret things, we offer what we see, and yet you seek to go back and forth like the mosquito.
You tried to get AA to go after me, you tried to get all the cals to go after me, now you want me to go after Con 1....for what purpose?
Do you really want truth? The truth is we are all at different levels of growth.
When I can I seek out godly persons to run ideas by to trim off what I hold that should be left behind.
God does not need plan B at anytime...He is God. He never has to learn anything. He never has to adjust. He is God.
When he considers the whole Human race as fallen....and for His own Holy , wise purpose, elects a multitude of people in His Son.....whatever the process is...however we can speak of it....It is never because he has to look down a time tunnel and learn something, and gain knowledge.
God has perfect complete knowledge.
If any of us do not state this before each sentence does not mean we do not believe it. In trying to give you an answer in a helpful way, you look to twist with evil motive...it seems. If that is not what you are doing, say so.
AA might not like how I express some of my views. I believe he would agree with most of what I believe, but I am more than sure that how I express myself sometimes would make him cringe and think to himself...I would never say it that way!
I agree with most things he posts also. He has on one or two occasions said things in a way that I would not. So What??? He can express himself in a way that he is comfortable with, and I can do the same.
Do I hold you accountable for the error DHK posts??? If you agree with his error than I would. When DHK errors I speak directly to him
[as you see quite often:thumbsup:]
.
If I or Con 1, or any cal say something inconsistent, ask for clarification...do not be the mosquito:thumbsup:
I do not read Con 1 as being inconsistent, I think he was trying to be helpful toward you, not worried about his wording as much as trying to help you see what has eluded you.
here he offers that same idea to you;
see it!
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Don't be so childish in using the Imprecatory Psalms as evidence of the so-called "hatred" of God.
If that is your premise, I want you to read the following prayer carefully, then, think of any person, and ask yourself: Would you pray this prayer today for any person that you can think of?
Your prayer for who??
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