Calvinism within SBC

[Robert J Hutton]

Does anyone know what influence 5 point calvinism has within the Southern Baptist Convention. Roughly what percentage of SBC Pastors hold to this persuasion? If this has been discussed before on the BB could someone give me the web site details?

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

[KenH]

www.founders.org

 

[JohnB]

Also check out www.baptistfire.com

 

[TaterTot]

Its a definite issue within the SBC leadership

 

[gb93433]

The SBC is seriously concerned about the decline in evangelism.

That is death to a denomination.

 

[KenH]

A decline in evangelism is not related to the Arminianism - Calvinism controversy.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by KenH:
A decline in evangelism is not related to the Arminianism - Calvinism controversy.

It may not be the only thing but I saw it first hand among pastors in the SBC. Adherence to hyper-calvinism requires zero effort to do evangelism.

 

[Jimmy C]

I seem to recall that before William Carey and perhaps Spurgeon came in the scene in England, that Baptists were very Cavinistic - and Christianity was in serious decline. The same could happen here. I am in agreement with gb on this one.

 

[NateT]

Well Andrew Fuller, who was a HUGE supporter of William Carey was a staunch 5 point Calvinist (as was Spurgeon btw).

I think gb made the crucial point - that hyper-calvinism causes harm to evangelism. I think that the big churches within the SBC have a tendency to mischaracterize all Calvinists as hyper.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

In 1852 he became pastor of the small Baptist church at Waterbeach, Cambridgeshire, and in 1854, after preaching three months on probation and just four years after his conversion, Spurgeon, then only 20, was called to the pastorate of London's famed New Park Street Chapel, Southwark (formerly pastored by the Particular Baptist theologian John Gill). Within a few months of his call his powers as a preacher made him famous.


Spurgeon in his late twenties.The congregation quickly outgrew their building, moved to Exeter Hall, then to Surrey Music Hall. In these venues Spurgeon frequently preached to audiences numbering more than 10,000 — all in the days before electronic amplification. At twenty-two Spurgeon was the most popular preacher of the day.

In 1861 the congregation moved permanently to the newly constructed purpose-built Metropolitan Tabernacle at Elephant and Castle, seating five thousand people with standing room for another thousand. Some say that the Metropolitan Tabernacle is considered the first modern "megachurch."

Spurgeon was a Baptist and a Calvinist, but is still known to non-conformists of many denominations as the "Prince of Preachers" in the tradition of the Puritans and especially highly regarded amongst Presbyterians and Congregationalists, although he differed with them over the issue of baptism (in 1862, Spurgeon alienated many evangelicals when he preached against infant baptism, even though he was a staunch Calvinist).

Spurgeon was a Staunch Calvinist.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Carey became involved with a local association of Particular Baptists that had recently formed, where he became acquainted with men such as John Ryland, John Sutcliff, and Andrew Fuller, who would become his close friends in later years. They invited him to preach in their church in the nearby village of Barton every other Sunday. On October 5, 1783, William Carey was baptized by Ryland and committed himself to the Baptist denomination.

In 1785, Carey was appointed the schoolmaster for the village of Moulton. He was also invited to pastor the local Baptist church. During this time he read Jonathan Edwards' Account of the Life of the Late Rev. David Brainerd and the journals of the explorer James Cook, and became deeply concerned with propagating the Christian Gospel throughout the world. His friend Andrew Fuller had previously written an influential pamphlet in 1781 titled The Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation, answering the hyper-Calvinist belief then prevalent in the Baptist churches, that all men were not responsible to believe the Gospel. At a ministers' meeting in 1786, Carey raised the question of whether it was the duty of all Christians to spread the Gospel throughout the world. J. R. Ryland, the father of John Ryland, is said to have retorted: "Young man, sit down; when God pleases to convert the heathen, he will do it without your aid and mine."

William Carey was identified as a Particular Baptist (Calvinist) who was strongly influenced by the writings of Jonathon Edwards. He did, however, correctly rebuke the wrong thinking of hyper-Calvinists who wanted to neglect their duty to be obedient to God's Word by not spreading the Gospel to the world. This, in no way, contradicts Calvinist theology.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Jimmy C]

OK so Spurgeon was a STAUNCH calvinist - I do recall reading somewhere that England was a very Calvinistic country - and that Christianity was in decline in the early to mid 1800s. As gb aluded to - the calvinists at that time thought that God would take care of the evangelism - as a result they did not do thier part - until perhaps Spurgeon showed them the error of thier ways? I would also agree that there is a danger of that happening here.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

A major problem in all of this is there are differences of opinion on the definition of hyper-calvinism and calvinism.

 

[NateT]

All of this is great discussion, but far from the mark of the OP as neither Carey, Spurgeon, Fuller or others were Southern Baptists And the OP, being from England, is probably semi-familiar with those.

I see that most of the big churches in the SBC are at least non-Calvinistic, if not anti-Calvinist. Yet the founders movement is growing, and the most Calvinistic SBC seminary (Southern in Louisville) has a combined enrollment (extension center, online, on campus etc) of somehwere around 4000 I believe. That being said, there appears to be a growing number of Calvinists that are being unleashed on the convention.

It is not something that is defined within the convention. It is not defined as Arminian nor Calvinistic nor anything else.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
OK so Spurgeon was a STAUNCH calvinist - I do recall reading somewhere that England was a very Calvinistic country - and that Christianity was in decline in the early to mid 1800s. As gb aluded to - the calvinists at that time thought that God would take care of the evangelism - as a result they did not do thier part - until perhaps Spurgeon showed them the error of thier ways? I would also agree that there is a danger of that happening here.

You really like ignoring the facts to create your own alternate reality that smears all Calvinists by lumping them in with hypercalvinism, don't you? Apparently, evangelism and mission work seems to have flourished into one of the first mega churches (under Spurgeon), and some of the first missionary agencies among British Baptists (Carey). Just admit you are wrong and then acknowledge that Calvinist theology has nothing to do with the decline of evangelism neither back then in Britain, nor now in America.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[rlvaughn]

Back to the question.

Robert, I do not know if there is anything available that tries to assign a percentage of how many SBC pastors or churches might be 5 pt. Calvinist. The link given by KenH is a good place to start.

http://www.founders.org/misc/inlist.html

http://www.founders.org/misc/chlist.html

One problem with the founders-friendly lists of churches and individuals is that those on the lists are not necessarily members of the SBC. It contains any who consider themselves friendly to the founders movement. I would expect most are SBC, though.

You might also try keeping an eye on their blog, or even e-mailing a query to founders.org.

Founders Ministries Blog

 

[Jimmy C]

No more so than you tried to ignore the facts on Dr Dilday and tried to smear his reputation awhile back.

Your quote on Carey basically backed up what I remembered reading. Dont know why you are so hostile - I'm no great fan of calvinism - but would classify myself as a sort of calvinistic armenian.

But, yea - I do think that calvinism has its dangers - hyper calvinism being one of them!

 

[gb93433]

I have never thought of Spurgeon as all that calvinistic because he was highly evangelistic. I know calvinists who feel as though evangelism and calvinism do not meet and do not undertand why but they keep sharing Christ. Then there are others who see calvinism and quit sharing their faith. Over the years I have worked with many "thinkers" who have quit sharing their faith and are in turmoil. They feel as though God will save some without any effort on their part. What I tell them is that God has chosen to use one method of getting out the good news. He could have chosen any way he desired, but he chose people. From what I can see, I believe many calivinists have not studied the entire picture. They have the right words but an inferior explanantion and interpretation of scripture not understanding the historical context. Too many times they interpret scritpoure in light of modern day American culture and philosophies. Often I have heard them misinterpet Eph. 1:3 and lift it from its context. Teh arminians ignore God's sovereignty and place the responsibility on the shoulders of the preacher. Jesus said if they don't receive you to shake the dust off your feet and move on. It is a good thing we have others who will debate us and correct us. But in the end sometimes nobody really knows the answer. But I do knopw that spirituality is measured by my relationship with God and not hopw many works I do.

If the calvinists started sharing their faith more often they would see more come to Christ and if the armininaists prayed more they would see God's hand at work more.

 

[J. Jump]

Christianity in the SBC or any other Baptist organization or Christianity in any other denomination is not suffering because of Calvinsim being tied to a lack of evangelism. Christianity is suffering because Christians do not fear the Lord any more (The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom). Not only do we not fear the Lord, but we do not rely on Him for all our needs (see the letter to the Laodician church in Rev. 3). And not only do we not fear the Lord nor rely on Him, but we do not have very many "true" disciplers anymore producing "true" disciples. What we have are entertainers that are doing a great job of entertaining people.

 

[Johnv]

J Jump, in order to make your point, one must define "fear of the Lord". One of the errors of the past was that people were taught that we were to be afraid of the Lord. In fact, this biblical term refers to humble respect of the Lord. Respect for the Lord is arguably alive and well in churches today, but being afraid of the Lord is, thankfully, on the decline.