Calvinism

[Van]

Yet another "taint so" post. More deflection, more obfuscation. Everyone saved was drawn by the Father through the gospel. But everyone drawn by the Father through the gospel was not saved. See Matthew 13.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another "taint so" post. More deflection, more obfuscation.

Broken record.

Everyone saved was drawn by the Father through the gospel. But everyone drawn by the Father through the gospel was not saved. See Matthew 13.

Correction, those who are not saved were never drawn by the Father.

 

[Van]

Broken record.
Correction, those who are not saved were never drawn by the Father.

Yet another false claim based on a logical fallacy. This absurdity is claimed again and again like broken record. Draw, when used metaphorically means to persuade or attract such as by demonstrating God's lovingkindness.

All saved were drawn, but not all drawn by the Father through the gospel are saved. Simple truth.

 

[Reformed1689]

Draw, when used metaphorically means to persuade or attract such as by demonstrating God's lovingkindness.

Why do you think it is metaphorical?

 

[Reformed1689]

All saved were drawn, but not all drawn by the Father through the gospel are saved. Simple truth.

Truth requires evidence. There is no evidence of this claim. Show where ALL are drawn by the Father.

 

[Van]

Truth requires evidence. There is no evidence of this claim. Show where ALL are drawn by the Father.

Good Grief, and your side suggests I do not read.

 

[Reformed1689]

Good Grief, and your side suggests I do not read.

Well considering we point out the grammar, then you say you don't need to show how the grammar supports your position.....you either don't read, or don't care, or don't know.

 

[Reformed1689]

Good Grief, and your side suggests I do not read.

Where does it say ALL (every individual) are drawn?

 

[Van]

Where does it say ALL (every individual) are drawn?

More absurdity, more strawman misrepresentations, more falsehoods.

All saved were drawn not mean everyone was drawn. The constant and deliberate misrepresentations prove there is no support in scripture for the TULI doctrines of the tulip.

All saved were drawn, but not all drawn by the Father through the gospel are saved. Simple truth.

 

[Reformed1689]

More absurdity, more strawman misrepresentations, more falsehoods.

By asking a question? No sir, it is not me being absurd.

All saved were drawn not mean everyone was drawn. The constant and deliberate misrepresentations prove there is no support in scripture for the TULI doctrines of the tulip.

So not everyone is drawn? If not everyone is drawn then God obviously does not will salvation for each individual since they can only come to Christ if drawn by the Father.

All saved were drawn, but not all drawn by the Father through the gospel are saved. Simple truth.

I've already blown your argument out of the water. You have finally agreed that not every man is drawn and therefore God does not choose all to be saved. Welcome to the doctrines of grace Van.

 

[Van]

So not everyone is drawn? If not everyone is drawn then God obviously does not will salvation for each individual since they can only come to Christ if drawn by the Father.

Here, you impose your plan of salvation over and against the one presented in scripture. God chose to use witnesses to spread the gospel, but not everyone has heard the gospel. Scripture once again says God desires all men to be saved. To deny this is to deny scripture

I've already blown your argument out of the water. You have finally agreed that not every man is drawn and therefore God does not choose all to be saved. Welcome to the doctrines of grace Van.

Note the claim of evidence presented in the unreferenced past. Twaddle
I always maintained not all men are saved, but all saved were drawn. However not all drawn were saved. So by the numbers:
1) God draws people through the gospel, where they "behold" Jesus high and lifted up, dying for their sins.
2) Not everyone hears the gospel.
3) Not everyone who hears the gospel understands it.
4) Only those who hear and understand the gospel are drawn by the Father
5) Not everyone drawn fully receives the gospel. For example the second and third soils of Matthew 13 did not go "all in" for Christ.
6) God does not credit the faith of every professing believer (i.e. second and third soil). Therefore not all drawn are chosen and saved.

 

[MB]

David
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Before the crucifixion God drew men after the crucifixion Christ draws all men
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

David
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Before the crucifixion God drew men after the crucifixion Christ draws all men
MB

Yes, all men as in all people groups. Look at the context.

 

[MB]

Yes, all men as in all people groups. Look at the context.

The context is "all men" It is simple and plain with out complications and no matter how much you try it will never say anything else but all men. People should never try to make scripture say what it does not say.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

The context is "all men" It is simple and plain with out complications and no matter how much you try it will never say anything else but all men. People should never try to make scripture say what it does not say.
MB

This is just ignorant. Two words cannot be the whole context.

 

[Reformed1689]

Note the claim of evidence presented in the unreferenced past. Twaddle
I always maintained not all men are saved, but all saved were drawn. However not all drawn were saved. So by the numbers:
1) God draws people through the gospel, where they "behold" Jesus high and lifted up, dying for their sins.
2) Not everyone hears the gospel.
3) Not everyone who hears the gospel understands it.
4) Only those who hear and understand the gospel are drawn by the Father
5) Not everyone drawn fully receives the gospel. For example the second and third soils of Matthew 13 did not go "all in" for Christ.
6) God does not credit the faith of every professing believer (i.e. second and third soil). Therefore not all drawn are chosen and saved.

So how does God decide who is drawn and who is not? By the way, where is the evidence that the Father draws some that end up not believing? The Matthew passage does not say those who did not receive were drawn by the Father. Also, does not credit the faith of every professing believer? Where in the world do you see that? This is a butchering of Scripture. In fact, it is unbiblical.

 

[MB]

This is just ignorant. Two words cannot be the whole context.

What is ignorant is taking two words and trying to make them say something they clearly do not.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

What is ignorant is taking two words and trying to make them say something they clearly do not.
MB

Good thing I didn't do that.

 

[Reformed1689]

The context is "all men" It is simple and plain with out complications and no matter how much you try it will never say anything else but all men. People should never try to make scripture say what it does not say.
MB

It is simple. The context is all men meaning both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Van]

So how does God decide who is drawn and who is not? By the way, where is the evidence that the Father draws some that end up not believing? The Matthew passage does not say those who did not receive were drawn by the Father. Also, does not credit the faith of every professing believer? Where in the world do you see that? This is a butchering of Scripture. In fact, it is unbiblical.

Once again, scripture is denied.
The redemption plan of God uses believers as His Ambassadors with the ministry of reconciliation.
Matthew 23:13 teaches some men were seeking God, in fact they were in the process of entering the kingdom. However, they were prevented by false teaching. These, then ended up not believing, or not fully believing. In any event, their faith was not credited as righteousness.
Matthew 7 teaches some professing believers, who worked in the ministry, did not have their "faith" credited because they were not set apart in Christ because Christ said He never knew them.

Your views, Sir, butcher scripture.