Calvinism's Total Depravity verses Scriptural Hardening

[William C]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
When God Draws ALL men unto Him - and in so doing He "enables" the choice that total depravity disabled - then the Calvinist calls this "God failing" if the one who can not "choose" does not "choose Life".

Although God ENABLES the choice that was NOT possible before - the Calvinist STILL declares this to be "failure" unless mankind is ALSO forced to choose "life" when he is ENABLED to choose.

When Adam and Eve were ENABLED to CHOOSE - and then chose DEATH after having been given LIFE - one could argue the Calvinist point "God FAILED to effectually create them as ALIVE since they eventually chose death".

Only Calvinism would resort to such circular logic.

I still disagree with the premise of Total depravity for reasons that I already mentioned in my other post, but this is a strong rebuttal to this argument.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Only Calvinism would resort to such circular logic.

Sorry, Bob, but your silligism just won't work. Never has, never will. Your idea of drawing is not Biblical and a slap at the perfect character of God.

Biblical drawing includes the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit which gives man a new nature that always willingly comes to Jesus in repentance and faith.

You see, Bob, when God starts a job He finishes the job. He doesn't do it halfway. If He only did it halfway, He would not be Almighty God.

[ April 13, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Ken the Spurgeonite ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
When Adam and Eve were ENABLED to CHOOSE - and then chose DEATH after having been given LIFE - one could argue the Calvinist point "God FAILED to effectually create them as ALIVE since they eventually chose death".

Once again, Bob, your lack of proper reasoning is much, much, much, much in evidence.

Adam did not have to be enabled as he was without a sin nature. There was no sin nature to be overcome in order to obey God.

It is your and your cohorts who advocate the false teaching of Arminianism who must deal with your scheme in which you teach that God fails. I believe that God always, always, always succeeds in accomplishing whatever His objective is. This is something you Arminians can never claim as you claim that God's objective is to save every single person but you also teach that He can't save every single person. Therefore, you teach that God cannot accomplish His objective. Arminianism is shown to be worthy of contempt from a Biblical perspective.

 

[Eric B]

I feel God HAD to harden Pharoahs' heart to carry out his will and purpose... Because if he didn't Pharoah would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes!... There is a great lesson here for all Gods children who are not blinded by their own strength... Brother Glen & Sister Charlotte

That would mean that Total Depravity (total inability to repent) is not really from man's nature, but from God actively keeping them from repenting. Isn't this what the Calvinists are trying to deny?

Your idea of drawing is not Biblical and a slap at the perfect character of God.

Biblical drawing includes the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit which gives man a new nature that always willingly comes to Jesus in repentance and faith.

You're calling this "Biblical", but where are you getting it from? It seems like it is based on a presupposition of Calvinistic Irresistable Grace.

You see, Bob, when God starts a job He finishes the job. He doesn't do it halfway. If He only did halfway, He would not be Almighty God.

It is your and your cohorts who advocate the false teaching of Arminianism who must deal with your scheme in which you teach that God fails. I believe that God always, always, always succeeds in accomplishing whatever His objective is. This is something you Arminians can never claim as you claim that God's objective is to save every single person but you also teach that He can't save every single person. Therefore, you teach that God cannot accomplish His objective. Arminianism is shown to be worthy of contempt from a Biblical perspective.

God's objective is to save whoever will come, and people rejecting does not make that fail to be accomplished. In one sense He wills all to be saved, but just as the Calvinist will admit this, and state that both sides believe God has a higher objective than saving every single person, He has made this that people would have choice. It's the people who choose life that He "starts" and "finishes" on. Once again, your statement assumes that drawing in itself is apart of a[n irresistable] regeneration process.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Eric B:
God's objective is to save whoever will come

We disagree on what God's objective is. Obviously we will agree on little else in soteriology as well.

God's objective is to save all of those whom He purposed to save before time began.

God's objective is to save all of those whom He gave to His Son before time began.

God's objective is to save all of those for whom His Son shed His precious blood.

God's objective is to save all of those whom the Holy Spirit regenerates, gives new life to, by which they come to Jesus in repentance and faith.

You see, Eric, I believe that salvation is God-centered, not man-centered as Arminianism teaches. You see, Eric, I believe that salvation is all of God and none of man.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Eric B:
your statement assumes that drawing in itself is apart of a[n irresistable] regeneration process.

Absolutely. That is what the Bible teaches.

John 6:38-39(NASB)
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44(NASB)
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Those that are given to Christ = those whom Christ will raise up = those whom the Father draws.

The Bible knows nothing of a halfway drawing as you Arminians are teaching. Ya'll are in error in your soteriological teaching.

God never fails. Arminianism is a failed teaching scheme.

 

[Eric B]

You see, Eric, I believe that salvation is God-centered, not man-centered as Arminianism teaches. You see, Eric, I believe that salvation is all of God and none of man.

That is a non-sequitur. God's giving man a choise does not make salvation "man-centered". God still orchestrated the whole process on His own initiative, and the purpose is all for His glory, so this "man-centered" business is just a pure straw man.

39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44(NASB)
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Those that are given to Christ = those whom Christ will raise up = those whom the Father draws.

That does not say that all drawn are raised up. Those that are given to Christ = those whom Christ will raise up are a subset of those whom the Father draws.

The Bible knows nothing of a halfway drawing as you Arminians are teaching

That still assumes that drawing = saving.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Eric B:
1)That does not say that all drawn are raised up.

2) Those that are given to Christ = those whom Christ will raise up are a subset of those whom the Father draws.

1) Yes, it does. Please read it again without your false Arminian presuppostion. Thank you.

2) That is Arminian nonsense based on a false presupposition. Just accept the Scriptures for what they teach instead of twisting them to try to force them to teach what agrees with your false Arminian presupposition. Thanks.

 

[Eric B]

Perhaps it's really you who are reading it with a Calvinist presupposition. Long before I got into this debate, that verse always read to me that those coming and being raised were a subset of the drawn.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Eric B:
Long before I got into this debate, that verse always read to me that those coming and being raised were a subset of the drawn.

I can sympathize with you, Eric.

I have believed a lot of false teaching also before God showed me the truths embodied in what is nicknamed Calvinism. I pray that He will also open your eyes to His amazing, sovereign grace.

May God bless you in your study of His Word.

 

[William C]

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him

Joh 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Does he raise up all that he draws? Apparently not because John 12:32 says he draws all men. Oh, wait unless you are a universalist, right Ken?

 

[Eric B]

I can sympathize with you, Eric. I have believed a lot of false teaching also before God showed me the truths embodied in what is nicknamed Calvinism. I pray that He will also open your eyes to His amazing, sovereign grace.

You don't get what I just said. That wasn't a teaching I believed, but simply what I had read from the text. So what you're saying proves that one has to be indoctrinated to see Calvinism (what is falsely co-opting the term "grace") in it.

 

[William C]

Could a Calvinist anwer the original post of this thread for me.

Dallas said he can't because of time restrants (I understand)

Nick responded and I refuted his response and he left the board shortly thereafter without responding to my counter arguments

Ken made a one line comment that was rebutted by several of us and never answered

BobRyan, an Arminian, thought I was "throwing out the baby with the bath water" by not supporting Calvinism's view of Total Depravity. I explained why I didn't believe that was the case with some arguments that I would love to hear a response to by Bob if he gets a chance.

I'm not being argumentative here, I'm just really am trying to work through this and I want some dialogue on this issue. Thank you

 

[BobRyan]

Brother Bill
Seriously, I hear what you are saying. And I think there is some validity to your arguments. The scripture says that no one can come unless they are drawn, and it also says all men are drawn when he is lifted up, therefore it can be said that he has enabled all man to come to him.

And the "benefit" of that is that it is fully compatible with the Arminian position of free will AND it is fully compatible with Romans 3, and Romans 8 where we find that the lost condition is that of a heart that "does not obey the law of God - neither indeed CAN it".

It leaves us with the Arminian concept of Free Will without the need to refute Romans 8.

[/quote]
This is a good argument, but I don't think Jesus had Total Depravity in mind when he was teaching these things in John 6. [/quote]

When Jesus argued NO one CAN come to the Father EXCEPT through ME - He is most certainly contrasting the man-made religion vs the supernatural work of God in salvation.

It is God that "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment".

It is God that "Draws all men unto Himself"

It is God that "Stands at the door of the heart and knocks".

If God did not "seek us" we would not find Him on our own. Christ point is that apart from His work in saving the soul - no man could come to God on his own.

Bill
I think he had two concepts in mind:

1. Not everyone has been given to be an apostle and learn directly from the Incarnate Word (God in flesh).

2. Not everyone in this audience can believe the signs and teachings because their hearts have been hardened (this is clearly seen in John 12:37-41).

There is no mention of "harded hearts can not be reached by Christ" nor that "Come through me" is a term indicating that only those without hardened hearts "may come".

In fact - no discussion is found at all of "hardening" in John 6.

Bill
Total Depravity ...the concept is never expressed in the scriptures.

Romans 3, Romans 8, Ephesians 2:1-5 ... there seems to be a "lot" of total depravity listed there.

Bill
I reject the part of Total Depravity that teaches man is born totally unable to respond to the gospel's call which comes by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's this part of the Calvinistic teaching that makes the effectual call necessary, which in turn makes the unconditional election necessary etc. Its the foundation for the entire Calvinistic system of thought and its not found in scripture.

Calvinism's use for total depravity is completely defused by the "Drawing of ALL mankind" that "Enables" what "Depravity" Disabled in terms of "choice". So it is removed from the Calvinist arsenal as a tool for "unconditional election" when the "drawing of ALL MANKIND" is put in place.

The NT makes a great deal about describing the lost state as "Helpless, slave, dead, innability" in Romans 6, Eph 2:1-4, 1Cor 2 last 6 vs, Romans 8:5-8, Romans 3 "There is NONE righteous NO not ONE".

Bill
If Israel of the OT was totally depraved in the way Calvinist teach why does God grow angry with them?

Because they were "Drawn to Him" and He "enabled" what depravity "disabled" in terms of choice. He condemns them for NOT choosing life WHEN LIFE was very much an option that they were ENABLED to choose - enabled by the "Drawing of ALL mankind" that is done by God.

Bill
If God's sovereign imputation of Adam's sin caused the complete inablity of mankind to hear, understand, and respond to God's revelations, then how can He grow angry with them for doing that which He caused through that imputation?

God is not "forcing sin upon mankind" any more than He would force death on someone that chooses to dring poision. Or force death on the child of a drunk driver when that driver heads off a cliff.

The death that follows those actions "is natural" not "manufactured".

The sinful nature and depravity of the soul is the "natural result" of "rebellion against God".

Adam's children were not born as "another Adam" but as "a fallen sinful Adam". But even then - God "draws all mankind" to Himself - and convicts them of sin and righteousness and judgment. God's spirit worked like the wind- such that they could be "born again".

Bill
This would be like breaking someones legs and then getting mad at them because they can't walk. It is nonsense!

No it is like someone breaking their own legs while driving the car. In the resulting car wreck - all others in that car also suffer broken legs. God then shows up with braces and wheelchairs - and places ALL in the chairs but STILL they refuse to seek additional medical help and eventually fall back out of the chairs (hardening themselves).

Bill
And as you pointed out, why would God harden someone who is born Totally depraved? Seems redudant, don't you think?

As I said - the hardening is the resistance against the supernatural "enabling" that comes through the drawing power of God that ENABLES choice. It is choosing to get out of the wheelchair.

Bill
If your arguing that God only hardens those who have already been enabled, you need to rethink that. Hardening is spoken of long before Christ was raised up to "draw" all men to himself.

You propose a "two Gospel" solution - in fact there is only "one".

In John 3 Christ tells Nicodemus that the Holy Spirit is ALREADY working the heart of mankind - already causing the New Birth and that Nicodemus as a teacher of the Word of God - should already know that.

The Holy Spirit fully enabled Enoch - to "choose" - He chose life and in fact - was taken to heaven. Fully forgiven, Fully born again.

Since day one of the fall of man. The "problem" has been the same "sinful nature, depravity, detined for hell".

And the "solution" has been the same - "Faith in Christ's atoning death" - and the POWER of the Holyh Spirit in drawing us to God, convicting of sin, causing the New Birth.

The "solution" has always been supernatural and has resulted in the "one Gospel" Gal 1:6-11 being preached to "US just as to them also" Heb 4:1-2.

There is no question that BECAUSE the DRAWING of the Holy Spirit was already in place long before the Cross - -- there was "Something to harden" there was a "lower state" to which man "could descend" via stubborn continued rebellion.

Christ said before the cross "Every sin that a man commits may be forgiven EXCEPT blasphemy against the Holy Spirit". Even Before the Cross - the work of the Holy Spirit was the active agent in the life of man - and rejecting Him was to reject the "one solution".

Christ confessed to the Desciples that the Holy Spirit was "already WITH them".

Peter stated "Holy Men of old MOVED by the Holy Spirit -- Spoke from God".

God the Holy Spirit did not land on earth just after the cross.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[William C]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
And the "benefit" of that is that it is fully compatible with the Arminian position of free will AND it is fully compatible with Romans 3, and Romans 8 where we find that the lost condition is that of a heart that "does not obey the law of God - neither indeed CAN it". It leaves us with the Arminian concept of Free Will without the need to refute Romans 8.

Romans 3 never says that man is unable to respond to God's revelation by faith. It says that people don't seek God or know God and are unrighteous on their own. I agree with this. God seeks us through the means of the apostles preaching, scripture, disciples testimony etc, so that we can know him, so that we can have faith and have the imputed righteousness of Christ. All is covered. Read all of Romas 3 and you will see that after verses 10-12 there are verses 21 and following which introduce a "new" righteousness that does not come through the unreachable standard of the law, but through faith, which is NEVER in scripture said to be unattainable by man. In fact, man is commanded to have faith and rebuked for not having faith, which is nonsense for God to rebuke people for not having something he hasn't given them the capasity for. Don't you agree?

Romans 8 says as you have pointed out that man cannot obey the law. Since when are we saved by obeying the law? Jesus did that for us and we can have his righteousness imputed through faith, not the works of the law. How does this passage prove total depravity? It doesn't even say anything about man inablity to believe or have faith.

When Jesus argued NO one CAN come to the Father EXCEPT through ME - He is most certainly contrasting the man-made religion vs the supernatural work of God in salvation.

I agree.

It is God that "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Again, I agree

It is God that "Draws all men unto Himself"

It is God that "Stands at the door of the heart and knocks".

If God did not "seek us" we would not find Him on our own. Christ point is that apart from His work in saving the soul - no man could come to God on his own.

Once again, I agree. None of these provide support for maintaining a view of Total Depravity that is no where supported in the text.

God seeks us through the preaching of the gospel by the power of the Holy Spirit. And without Christ's work there would be no gospel to preach. Left on our own we all would truly perish, but God didn't leave us on our own. (I know we both agree to that)

There is no mention of "harded hearts can not be reached by Christ" nor that "Come through me" is a term indicating that only those without hardened hearts "may come".

In fact - no discussion is found at all of "hardening" in John 6.

Your right there is not. However, there is also not any discussion about Total Depravity in John 6, in fact there is no mention of Total Depravity in the whole book of John (or the entire Bible for that matter.) But does John mention hardening? Why yes he does. He writes just 6 chapters later these very words:

This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said: He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them.

So, you can believe in the man made concept of Total Depravity as the reason the people of John 6 could not believe; or you can believe John himself who clearly taught a doctrine that is clearly laid out and amply supported throughout the scriptures.

BTW, the reason the Jews couldn't believe couldn't be both hardening and Total Depravity because that wouldn't make any sense. Why would God cause people not to be able to believe who were born not able to believe?

Total Depravity makes hardening seem sence less and redudant not to mention the fact that is causes a great amount of confusion to the simple understanding of the text.

Romans 3, Romans 8, Ephesians 2:1-5 ... there seems to be a "lot" of total depravity listed there.

Look again with an objective eye. Do any of those verses really teach what Total Depravity claims? Do they ever say that man does not have the capasity to have faith in the gospel of Christ? Do they ever say that man in unable to see, hear, understand and believe? No, but Acts 28; Mark 4; Matt. 13 & 21; John 12 and Rom. 10 & 11 say that about the hardened Israelites.

Calvinism's use for total depravity is completely defused by the "Drawing of ALL mankind" that "Enables" what "Depravity" Disabled in terms of "choice". So it is removed from the Calvinist arsenal as a tool for "unconditional election" when the "drawing of ALL MANKIND" is put in place.

Regardless of what you believe about God's drawing of all men the concept of Total Depravity is not supported. Your argument further debunks their claims which is why I like it, but that should not cause us to agree with a concept that doesn't have support.

Plus, you need to consider the soteriology of man before Christ was "lifted up" to draw all men. Was not Abraham saved through faith? Was he being drawn out of his depravity?

What about God's longing to gather up Israel under his wings, was this not geniune because they weren't enabled yet. (Matt. 23:37) You must see that your willingness to allow Total Depravity to go unrefuted causes you to undermine other strong support text for Arminianism. Please reexaimine your views.

Because they were "Drawn to Him" and He "enabled" what depravity "disabled" in terms of choice. He condemns them for NOT choosing life WHEN LIFE was very much an option that they were ENABLED to choose - enabled by the "Drawing of ALL mankind" that is done by God.

But, your "enabling" verse says that we are enabled when Christ is lifted up, he hadn't been lifted when the OT was written. Please explain.

Bill
If God's sovereign imputation of Adam's sin caused the complete inablity of mankind to hear, understand, and respond to God's revelations, then how can He grow angry with them for doing that which He caused through that imputation?

God is not "forcing sin upon mankind" any more than He would force death on someone that chooses to dring poision. Or force death on the child of a drunk driver when that driver heads off a cliff.

The death that follows those actions "is natural" not "manufactured".

The sinful nature and depravity of the soul is the "natural result" of "rebellion against God".

"God bound all men over to disobiedence so that he may have mercy on them all." Rom 11:32

Sin entering the world was no accident. God made the rule about not eating from the tree for a reason. God is not the cause of sin, but he most certainly is the one who caused the imputation of that sin upon the world. Why? So that he could have mercy on them all.

As I said - the hardening is the resistance against the supernatural "enabling" that comes through the drawing power of God that ENABLES choice. It is choosing to get out of the wheelchair.

Problem: God's enabling doesn't come until Christ is raised up. What am I missing here?

I'll deal with the rest of your post after you give me a little better understanding of what we have discussed thus far. Thanks for you post.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
And the "benefit" of that is that it is fully compatible with the Arminian position of free will AND it is fully compatible with Romans 3, and Romans 8 where we find that the lost condition is that of a heart that "does not obey the law of God - neither indeed CAN it". It leaves us with the Arminian concept of Free Will without the need to refute Romans 8.
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Brother Bill
Romans 3 never says that man is unable to respond to God's revelation by faith. It says that people don't seek God or know God and are unrighteous on their own. I agree with this.

Romans 3 says "There is NNE rigtheous not even one".

Romans 3 says "There is no one who seeks after God".

This is "either" a discription of the utter depravity of the human soul (of itself) "Both Jews and Greeks" as Romans 3 says - or it is a comment about the final result of a free will soul given the call to repent - but still choosing rebellion.

If it is the former - the Arminian position is possible. If it is the latter - Arminianism itself collapses.

Having establihsed the corrupt state of the soul as the starting point ("No one seeks after God") - Romans 3 then goes on to show that works-without-faith (which is righteousness by works alone) can not succeed. This is evident from the starting point of utter corruption.

Bill
God seeks us through the means of the apostles preaching, scripture, disciples testimony etc, so that we can know him, so that we can have faith and have the imputed righteousness of Christ.

The "drawing power of God" is through the Holy Spirit John 16 "Convicting the World of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment".

Bill ...In fact, man is commanded to have faith and rebuked for not having faith, which is nonsense for God to rebuke people for not having something he hasn't given them the capasity for. Don't you agree?

To each one is "given" a measure of Faith Romans 12 - it is a gift of God - it is not the natural endowment of the depravity of the human soul.

The Calvinist position is that "ALL are NOT drawn" that " all can not choose to believe in Christ" that God has not "given to EACH ONE a measure of faith".

That is the "delta" between the Arminian and Calvinist views.

But the total depravity of the human soul is common to both.

Bill
Romans 8 says as you have pointed out that man cannot obey the law. Since when are we saved by obeying the law?

Romans 8 contrasts those who "walk after the spirit in obedience" vs those who "Walk after the flesh in rebellion". It is very focused on the "deeds of the flesh" saying "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN are you the children of God".

So the one who "Does NOT submit to the Word (LAW) of God" and indeed "CAN NOT" do so - is ONLY the one who is in rebellion according to Romans 8. It does not say this of the one who is walking according to the Spirit - arguing that they can only rebel against God's Word/Law.

For that Reason Paul has already stated (before chapter 8) "Do we then make Void the Law of God through Faith? God forbid! Rather we Establish the Law of God" Romans 3:31.

This is in direct opposition to the "rebellion" described in Romans 8.

We do not "Establish it by being unnable to submit".

How does this passage prove total depravity?

It shows man to be "in rebellion" Against God's infallible Word - His Law - His commands given to mankind - His call to obedience.

In Romans - Faith is not "approved rebellion" nor "sanctified disobedience".

In Romans 6 Paul has already established that IF you rebel against God then in fact - you are "in slavery to sin". And sin is violation of the Law of God - by definition. When we argue that Christ did not sin - we are saying that He perfectly obeyed the requirements of His Own Law. (Love for God Deut 6:5 and Love for mankind Lev 19:18).

The New Covenant places that Law "upon the tablets of the human heart".

quote:Bob
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When Jesus argued NO one CAN come to the Father EXCEPT through ME - He is most certainly contrasting the man-made religion vs the supernatural work of God in salvation.
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I agree.


quote:
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It is God that "Convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment".
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Again, I agree


quote:
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It is God that "Draws all men unto Himself"

It is God that "Stands at the door of the heart and knocks".

If God did not "seek us" we would not find Him on our own. Christ point is that apart from His work in saving the soul - no man could come to God on his own.
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Bill
Once again, I agree. None of these provide support for maintaining a view of Total Depravity that is no where supported in the text.

This is "part II" it is showing how God deals with total depravity - the "natural innability of the depraved soul to come to God on its own".

It is the supernatural work of God that draws us - that "enables" what depravity "disabled".

In Romans 8 we see both the ENABLED walk and the DISABLED walk.


quote:
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There is no mention of "harded hearts can not be reached by Christ" nor that "Come through me" is a term indicating that only those without hardened hearts "may come".

In fact - no discussion is found at all of "hardening" in John 6.
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Bill
Your right there is not.

Seeking to make John 6 about "hardening" is not going to work.

But as you note - John 6 is not the place to get the information about the "heart that CAN NOT submit to the LAW of God".

However - it does talk about the fact that we "Can not" come to the Father on our own - only through the drawing of God.

Bill
But does John mention hardening? Why yes he does.

The truth about The utter innability to come to God, to yield to His word/will (Romans 8) to comprehend spiritual themes (1Cor 2) does not require that we also deny the truth about hardening - as you propose.

"Hardening" of someone that is being drawn to God - that is "enabled" to choose life - but who persistently "Grieves the Holy Spirit" by choosing death - does not deny the utter depravity of the soul or the divine "drawing power of Christ".

There is no "either or paradox" in scripture on this point. BOTH the hardening AND the total innability of the lost human nature to come to God "on its own" are presented in scripture. The two teachings are in perfect harmony.

BTW, the reason the Jews couldn't believe couldn't be both hardening and Total Depravity because that wouldn't make any sense. Why would God cause people not to be able to believe who were born not able to believe?

You are not following the point.

They are not "ABLE" to believe "on their own". But God "ENABLES" all of them - He "DRAWS ALL" John 12:32 He "CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 He sends His Holy Spirit to move upon the heart of ALL John 3:1-10

Bill
Total Depravity makes hardening seem senseless

Only if you keep refusing to apply the supernatural "DRAWING of ALL mankind to God" - that ENABLES the ability to choose and to believe - that the sinful nature DISABLES in total depravity.


quote:
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Romans 3, Romans 8, Ephesians 2:1-5 ... there seems to be a "lot" of total depravity listed there.
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[/quote] Bill
Look again with an objective eye. Do any of those verses really teach what Total Depravity claims? Do they ever say that man does not have the capasity to have faith in the gospel of Christ? [/quote]

Yes. (your view that man has the inborn natural capacity to choose on his own - without God, to believe on his own - without God, to come to faith on his own - without God - is not in the Bible).

1Cor 2 says the natural man - "on his own" - can't even comprehend spiritual truth.

Romans 8 says the natural man is in rebellion against God and "can not submit to God's commands".

Ephesians 2 says that the natural man - apart from God is "enslaved" to the "god of this world".

Bill
Do they ever say that man in unable to see, hear, understand and believe?

Yes.

1Cor 2:13-14 "The natural man CAN NOT understand the things of God"


quote:
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Calvinism's use for total depravity is completely defused by the "Drawing of ALL mankind" that "Enables" what "Depravity" Disabled in terms of "choice". So it is removed from the Calvinist arsenal as a tool for "unconditional election" when the "drawing of ALL MANKIND" is put in place.
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Bill

Plus, you need to consider the soteriology of man before Christ was "lifted up" to draw all men. Was not Abraham saved through faith? Was he being drawn out of his depravity?

Yes Abraham saved "by faith"

Enoch saved by faith - AND taken alive into heaven. (Heb 11)

Elijah - saved by faith - AND taken alive into heaven (2Kings 2)

Moses saved by faith - and fellowshipping with Elijah PRE-Cross (Matt 17)

The depravity of man before the cross is quoted in Romans 3 - as it quotes from Psalms.14

Only the drawing of God - the work of the Holy Spirit PRE-Cross (John 3:1-13) causing the New Birth could "enable" what that total depravity Disabled.

"One Gospel" in ALL ages Gal 1:6-11

Bill
What about God's longing to gather up Israel under his wings, was this not geniune because they weren't enabled yet. (Matt. 23:37)

No. Heb 11 shows them "fully enabled" and actively choosing salvation EVEN though the Psalms 14 (Romans 3) principle of total depravity "NO one - not even one seeking God" was in full effect.


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Because they were "Drawn to Him" and He "enabled" what depravity "disabled" in terms of choice. He condemns them for NOT choosing life WHEN LIFE was very much an option that they were ENABLED to choose - enabled by the "Drawing of ALL mankind" that is done by God.
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Bill
But, your "enabling" verse says that we are enabled when Christ is lifted up, he hadn't been lifted when the OT was written. Please explain.

Christ shows a drawing and enabling as the benefit of the cross. But As Romans 4 points out - God considers those things that are not "As though they are". So the Cross is the "Source" of the "enabling" in all ages. Those saints in heaven BEFORE the cross were there by the blood of the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the World. Only the blood of Christ could do it - in all ages (Heb 10:1-5)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[William C]

Bob, I think I have a grasp on our differences now.

I say Total Depravity, as taught by Calvinist, is untrue and unsupported.

You say it is true but is negated because of Christ's work which as in essense disable the depravity of man by drawing all man.

In regard to hardening, you say that man is born total depraved, made able through the drawing of Christ, and then some of them are hardened by refusing that drawing.

I say man are born sinners, but not totally depraved, and are drawn by God and hardened by refusing.

The only real difference is that you believe God's drawing negates Total Depravity before Total Depravity ever really had any affect in the first place. You say Christ's drawing is for all ages so in essense total depravity was never a factor, because God has always negated it. Why would scripture need to teach Total Depravity if total depravity never had any affect on man's nature due to Christ's drawing throughout all of time? In other words, if there has never been a time that Christ didn't draw all people to himself, then why would scripture teach that natural man is unable to see, hear and understand in the way you have described. The truth is, if Christ as been drawing througout all ages, then no man has ever been unable to see, hear, understand and turn (unless they are hardened of course.)

Romans 3 says "There is NNE rigtheous not even one".
Romans 3 says "There is no one who seeks after God".
This is "either" a discription of the utter depravity of the human soul (of itself) "Both Jews and Greeks" as Romans 3 says - or it is a comment about the final result of a free will soul given the call to repent - but still choosing rebellion.
If it is the former - the Arminian position is possible. If it is the latter - Arminianism itself collapses.

But don't you see that you must hold to the latter position if you believe that Christ has called thus enabling the free will throughout all ages. According to your logic there has never been a time when Total Depravity was in effect because Christ draws all people throughout all ages. In other word, whether you believe TD does not exist or you believe it was destroyed before it had any effect on mankind the understanding of Romans 3 must be the same--TD doesn't exist and never really did in it affect upon mankind. Please explain.

The "drawing power of God" is through the Holy Spirit John 16 "Convicting the World of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment".

Look at the passage:

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Notice, he says I will send the Spirit to "YOU." Who is "YOU"? The apostles, or believers. He is not talking about the HS work on unbelievers, he is speaking about his work with and through believers.

He is talking about the HS coming to indwell the apostles so as to give them the words to speak which in turn brings conviction to the World. For "how will they believe unless someone tells them." The Holy Spirit could work independant of man, but according to the scripture He doesn't; He works through man.

So, the "drawing power of God" is the work of the HS through his messengers who preach the gospel. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation!

Total Depravity teaches that the gospel in not enough to give man the ability to believe, but that there has to be a special indepedant "drawing" or "calling" by God. You say that independant drawing is to all man for all ages. Calvinists say it is to the elect only. I say there is no independant drawing but that the HS draws and convicts through the gospel, the spoken word, which was given to his divinly chosen apostles and is available to us through divinly inspired scripture. The Word is sharper than any two edged sword and will cut through to the heart of man. The Word will not return empty but will accomplish its purpose.

The power is in the Word, because that is where God chose to place the power.

To each one is "given" a measure of Faith Romans 12 - it is a gift of God - it is not the natural endowment of the depravity of the human soul.
The Calvinist position is that "ALL are NOT drawn" that " all can not choose to believe in Christ" that God has not "given to EACH ONE a measure of faith".
That is the "delta" between the Arminian and Calvinist views.
But the total depravity of the human soul is common to both.

You are taking a departure from historical Arminianism. Remeber the 5 points of Calvinism where developed by the opponents of Calvin, which included Jacobus Arminius. The first point that they disagreed with was Total Depravity. You say that that we have this point in common, but that is not true. We don't have this point in common historically, and quite honestly I don't know of many Arminians (who are knowledgable of the issues) who truly hold to TD as taught by Calvinism.

We do not "Establish it by being unnable to submit".

But according to you, no one has really ever been unable to submit because all have been drawn for all time.

Your position forces you to argue theorically, not realistically. You have to say, the OT people are theorically Totally depraved, but realistically we are not because Christ has drawn every one of them equally. This cannot fly.

Plus, one's inablity to submit himself to the law in no way proves his inablity to submit himself in faith. Abraham had faith. Rahab had faith. But neither of these submitted themself to the law in full measure. Find me a verse that says man is not able to submit himself to faith instead of one that say man is not able to submit himself to the law and maybe you'll have a case.

I asked, "How does this passage prove Total Depravity? And you answered:

It shows man to be "in rebellion" Against God's infallible Word - His Law - His commands given to mankind - His call to obedience.

Man in rebellion doesn't prove TD. In fact, I believe it poves the opposite. Rebellion implies they have a choice to not rebell. To point to passages of man's rebellion doesn't prove in any way that man is unable not to rebell when confronted with the truth of God's revelation. Yes, without the truth they wouldn't have a choice, but the fact is that the truth has been made known through the prophets and the apostles.

Plus, look at the inconsistancy in your view:
According to you. Man throughout all ages have been drawn by Christ thus have had Total Depravity revolved in their lives and are able to choose, yet in these passages they are said to be in rebellion. How does that prove TD if TD has been revolked by Christ's drawing of all man throughout the ages. I'm sorry Bob, with all due respect to you; this is the reason your arguments haven't stood the test of time, they are inconsistant.

This is "part II" it is showing how God deals with total depravity - the "natural innability of the depraved soul to come to God on its own".
It is the supernatural work of God that draws us - that "enables" what depravity "disabled".
In Romans 8 we see both the ENABLED walk and the DISABLED walk.

Here again you show your inconsistancy by pointing out there are some who have an "enabled" walk and other who don't. How can that be if Christ has drawn all mankind thus enabling them all?

Are you arguing theorically? Are you saying that Paul is saying what would be if Christ hadn't drawn all man to himself? This is a stretch and makes the plain meaning of the text confused and muttled all for the sake of maintaining a doctrine that is not supported anywhere in the scriptures.

Seeking to make John 6 about "hardening" is not going to work.
But as you note - John 6 is not the place to get the information about the "heart that CAN NOT submit to the LAW of God".

I'm not seeking to make John 6 about hardening any more that you are trying to make it about Total Depravity. I'm only appling the truth of God's word about the nature of Christ's audience.

You say they can't believe because they are TD, but TD is never mentioned in the scripture. I say they can't believe because they are hardened which John's exact words just six chapters later.

However - it does talk about the fact that we "Can not" come to the Father on our own - only through the drawing of God.

You say, "we". How do you know "we" are even in consideration here. The text say "No one can come" to Christ. You assume that means no man in the world can come to salvation through faith in the gospel. I believe that Jesus is talking about man's ability to come to him in the flesh. In other words, he is saying, "No one of you can come to me while I'm here on Earth and learn from me." Why? Because it has only been granted to the 12 to be my apostles and learn from me directly. God has given these twelve to Christ for a unique work as John 17 clearly points out.

The others in his audience could not come to him for one of two reasons:

1. They were born unable to come because of the fall.

Now, this can't be your reason, because according to you Christ has drawn all man thus enabling them for all ages. How or why would they be unable if Christ had drawn them all?

2. They weren't enabled by God to come and learn from the Christ, but instead remained temporarly hardened by God as John 12 and Romans 11 clearly teach. Why? To fulfill the plan of God.

Look at Paul as an example. He was hardened during the time of Christ. It is very likely that Jesus called Paul at one time a "brood of vipers" along with all the rest of the Pharisees and that he participated in wanting Christ to be crucified. But, God "enabled" him to come to Christ by removing the scales from his eyes (or the hardening from his heart). Other Israelites at the time of John 6 had scales over their eyes, they were blind, deaf and could not believe because God had sent them a spirit of stupor and hardened them, therefore, only those of the Israelites whom God uniquly chose to "enable" could come, the rest were hardened.

"Hardening" of someone that is being drawn to God - that is "enabled" to choose life - but who persistently "Grieves the Holy Spirit" by choosing death - does not deny the utter depravity of the soul or the divine "drawing power of Christ".

But don't you see that according to your view the people of John 6 were all enabled because Christ had drawn them all, so Christ's words are meaningless.

Christ is addressing their unbelief, their inablity to come. Yet, you maintain that all men have been enabled for all ages. That doesn't fly.

I wrote: BTW, the reason the Jews couldn't believe couldn't be both hardening and Total Depravity because that wouldn't make any sense. Why would God cause people not to be able to believe who were born not able to believe?
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Your wrote: You are not following the point.
They are not "ABLE" to believe "on their own". But God "ENABLES" all of them - He "DRAWS ALL" John 12:32 He "CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 He sends His Holy Spirit to move upon the heart of ALL John 3:1-10

Here is your inconsistancy again. You say that he sends His Holy Spirit to move upon the hearts of All, but later maintain that the HS has been enabling all man for all ages. Why does the scripture talk about sending the Spirit after Christ acends back into heaven if the HS has been on earth working all along?

Bill:
Total Depravity makes hardening seem senseless
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Only if you keep refusing to apply the supernatural "DRAWING of ALL mankind to God" - that ENABLES the ability to choose and to believe - that the sinful nature DISABLES in total depravity.

I don't deny that God draws all man. I'm only denying that scripture teaches the concept of Total Depravity; therefore, there is no need to teach that this drawing of Christ or the HS gives man the ability to respond. Yes, Christ and the HS are essential to man's response, because without Christ's work on the cross there would be no gospel to preach and without the inspiration of the HS there would not have been the gospel either. If left on our own we would perish, but we cannot ignore the work of God through the HS in God's messengers as not being sufficient for faith.

 

[William C]

I must comment about a few more of your quotes:

(your view that man has the inborn natural capacity to choose on his own - without God, to believe on his own - without God, to come to faith on his own - without God - is not in the Bible).

Man can't breath on his own. All good things come from God, even our capacity to choose. This capasity is implied throughout the scripture. Read Deut. 30 as just one example.

You believe that everyone has the capasity because Christ draws them, I believe they were born with that capasity because God gave it to them. The difference is that your view contradicts itself when it comes to those passages in the NT that you claim teach that men are born unable to choose when you also teach that Christ's drawing has enabled all men for all ages.

And I never said we can choose "on our own." You can't come to faith without someone telling you the truth. That is not "on your own." "How will they believe unless someone tells them?" God ordained the inspiration of the gospel for this purpose. I don't negate the need for God's intervention.

1Cor 2 says the natural man - "on his own" - can't even comprehend spiritual truth.

No, it says that a man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of the Spirit. It says nothing about how one receives the Spirit. Gal 3:14 says that the Spirit comes through Faith. Throughout the book of Acts we see that the Spirit comes to those with faith in Christ.

In short, I Cor 2 is about believers understanding the "deep things of God" or the "things of the Spirit," it's not talking about how one receives the Spirit.

The unbelievers inability to understand the deep things of the Spirit, which even believers have trouble with as we can see from this text (chapter 3), in no way proves that man cannot have faith in the simple gospel truth. If it did, the Corinthians wouldn't be saved because it's clear that they are not comprehending the "deep truths" that Paul speaks of.

Christ shows a drawing and enabling as the benefit of the cross. But As Romans 4 points out - God considers those things that are not "As though they are". So the Cross is the "Source" of the "enabling" in all ages. Those saints in heaven BEFORE the cross were there by the blood of the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the World. Only the blood of Christ could do it - in all ages (Heb 10:1-5)

This is where your contradiction lies as I have pointed out.

If all man have been enabled then no man has ever been Totally Depraved and this discussion as well as the so called support passages of this doctrine are meaningless and contradictory.

 

[BobRyan]

The only real difference is that you believe God's drawing negates Total Depravity before Total Depravity ever really had any affect in the first place. You say Christ's drawing is for all ages so in essense total depravity was never a factor, because God has always negated it. Why would scripture need to teach Total Depravity if total depravity never had any affect on man's nature due to Christ's drawing throughout all of time? In other words, if there has never been a time that Christ didn't draw all people to himself, then why would scripture teach that natural man is unable to see, hear and understand in the way you have described. The truth is, if Christ as been drawing througout all ages, then no man has ever been unable to see, hear, understand and turn (unless they are hardened of course.)

You are correct in your evaluation of the salient points of difference and in identifying that in my view - the depravity does not get to freely manifest itself - unaffected by the Drawing power of God until after one is fully hardened.

So what is the "point"? The point is that my view accounts for all the "totaly depravity" examples where the sinner not only DOES not choose obedience - he "CAN not" and not only that "HE CAN not even comprehend spiritual things".

It also accounts for the sweeping statement "there is NON righteous no not ONE" and "NO one seeks after God" by saying that this is in the context of "man on his own".

It also accounts for the "slavery to sin" texts of Eph 2:1-7 and Romans 6 (and Romans 7:1-5) where we see that as long as man is not yielding to the supernatural drawing of God - he is caught in the cyclone of rebellion and sin - unnable to do anything else.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bill
Here is your inconsistancy again. You say that he sends His Holy Spirit to move upon the hearts of All, but later maintain that the HS has been enabling all man for all ages. Why does the scripture talk about sending the Spirit after Christ acends back into heaven if the HS has been on earth working all along?

A very good question.

We need to start a new thread on "The ONE Gospel".

In the case above it is clear from John 3 that EVEN before the cross - Christ considered that the Jewish teachers of scripture should ALREADY know about the New Birth and the fact that this is a work of God the Holy Spirit which must be done for ALL who would go to heaven.

In fact - once you accept "total depravity" it is clear that NOBODY in the Hall of Faith Heb 11 could have been there WITHOUT the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit "OLD things passed away ALL things become new". Without the new heart, without the law written on the heart - it is just "the ministry of death" 2Cor 3.

In Christ,

Bob