Calvinism's Total Depravity verses Scriptural Hardening

[William C]

Rufus, Rufus, Rufus

You don't think that Arminians believe the Holy Spirit is necessary in Salvation?????

What forum have you been on?

Who inspired the gospel? Who indwells those who believe to guide and give them the words to speak? Who says, "Come! And let him who hears say, Come, And let him who thrists come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."

I believe that was the "Spirit of the bride." You are attacking a straw man Rufus.

And concerning your words about Hardening. Judicial hardening of God is active, not passive as you seem to assert. Scripture says, "He GAVE them a spirit of stupor." It does not say he allowed them to get a spirit of stupor. Scripture says, "He hardened their hearts," Not, "he allowed their hearts to grow hard." There is a distinct difference between man's self hardening by making sinful choices and God's judicial hardening to accomplish a purpose. Even Calvinistic scholars recongize this.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by rufus:
Thanks for affirming my post, Scott. You are not pure Arminian, as witnessed by your own testimony, written large for the whole forum to attest.

rufus

[/QB]

I think this just shows how little you know about Arminianism, Rufus.

"The errors charged upon these (usually termed Arminians) by their opponents...that they deny original sin; that they deny justification by faith. With regard to the two first of these charges, they plead, Not Guilty. They are entirely false. No man that ever lived, not John Calvin himself, ever asserted either original sin, or justification by faith, in more strong, more clear and express terms, than Arminius has done. These two points, therefore, are to be set out of the question: In these both parties agree."

--- John Wesley

"Faith is the effect of God illuminating the mind and sealing the heart, and it is his mere gift."

--- James Arminius

See what I mean? Try to read what they actually said before you speak for them!

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
[QB] Rufus, Rufus, Rufus

You don't think that Arminians believe the Holy Spirit is necessary in Salvation?????

What forum have you been on?

Who inspired the gospel? Who indwells those who believe to guide and give them the words to speak? Who says, "Come! And let him who hears say, Come, And let him who thrists come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."

"This is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace."

--- James Arminius

 

[William C]

See what I mean? Try to read what they actually said before you speak for them!

AMEN!!!

 

[BobRyan]

Bill,

Lets define first "the DRAWING of ALL men unto God".

In John 16 Christ says the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

In 1Cor 2 Paul tells us that the SPIRIT is the one that teaches us to combine spiritual words and thoughts but that the one who SETS his mind on the flesh does not understand.

In John 3 Christ tells us that the drawing power of the Holy Spirit is not fully discerned by man -but we are drawn to God nonetheless.

BAsically - the "DRAWING of God" is supernatural outreach via the Holy Spirit that ENABLES all men to "choose" to accept salvation and to understand that they are lost and in need of salvation.,

What say you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Brother Bill --

I wanted to see how you respond to this argument:

Let's say we communicated with God by phone. And someone said, "Your phone cannot call God." Would you assume from that statement that when God calls you that you can't answer the phone? Of course not, but that is exactly what Total Depravity assumes from Romans 3:10 which says, "no one seeks God."

Just because no one seeks God on their own doesn't mean that no one can respond to God when He seeks them.

What do you think?

Most 5pt-Calvinists would say that God "does not call or reach out to the lost that He does not 'care' for".

My argument is that God reaches out to us - calls US - and enables us to answer. There is NNE who God does not enable to answer. ALL are drawn ALL can answer by the grace of God.

My reason for the emphasis on depravity - is to point out that "No one seeks after God" is a statement about the inner nature of all mankind - even the saints. That apart from God there is no good. As Paul states "I know that IN ME dwells NO good thing".

My view is not like the Calvinists when they claim that God mocks the lost by calling to them and not enabling them to respond. And then pretending to be angry (or sad) that they did not respond KNOWING that it is really HE who failed to give them ABILITY when HE calls to them. I do not make that case for depravity.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogman]

Let us discover what caused Adam to hide himself from the seeking God; and then we will understand what was required for him to present himself before the seeking God. Once we have done this correctly then we can declare we have rightly divided the word of truth; because as we would move forward from that first instance of God seeking after the lost sinner we will learn this to be the order of things and none other.

God Bless.
Bro. dallas

 

[BobRyan]

Again - I agree.

"For this is Love NOT that we loved God but that God loved US" Romans 5.

In fact, God "SO LOVED the WORLD".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[William C]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
BAsically - the "DRAWING of God" is supernatural outreach via the Holy Spirit that ENABLES all men to "choose" to accept salvation and to understand that they are lost and in need of salvation.,

What say you?

I'd say that I agree with most of what you have said here except for the assertion that drawing "enable" man to choose. This assumes that they were unable because of so-called Total Depravity, which as we have discussed is impossible to be supported in your view.

However, Christ does enable all man to believe through his drawing in that had he not done what he did on the cross we would not even have had the choice to make. In that sense Christ's drawing did enable us to choose, but not in the sense that it undid Total Depravity.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

My view is not like the Calvinists when they claim that God mocks the lost by calling to them and not enabling them to respond. And then pretending to be angry (or sad) that they did not respond KNOWING that it is really HE who failed to give them ABILITY when HE calls to them. I do not make that case for depravity.

To stick with the analogy...

How does the phrase, "no one calls God on the phone," support the view that says, "no one can answer the phone when God calls?????"

Or in our discussion...

How does the phrase, "no one seeks God," support the view that says "no one is able to respond to God."

This is the view of Total Depravity that you have been claiming is supported in the scripture. My question is, where? If you are going to hold that Total Depravity is true then you must have some biblical support. That would be impossible for you to find, because as I've clearly pointed out time and time again there has never been a time according to your view that man was Total Depraved, therefore there could be no verses that support Total Depravity, therefore Total Depravity can't be true. Make sense?

 

[BobRyan]

"When God calls on the phone" is not a description of the Romans 3 statement "No one seeks after God.. no one understands". Rather it is God "seeking after man".

Romans 3 does not say "When God draws man - man is not ENABLED by God to respond".

The "phone call" is God "DRAWING man" - EVEN in Calvinism "The supernatural DRAWING of God" -- "ENABLES" man to respond.

You are arguing against - God DRAWING and man STILL being unnable to respond. And I agree that is not what Romans 3 is stating.

Romans 3 is not referencing the depravity of man IN the context of God's Drawing or "Calling on the Phone".


In Christ,

Bob

 

[William C]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
"When God calls on the phone" is not a description of the Romans 3 statement "No one seeks after God.. no one understands". Rather it is God "seeking after man".

Romans 3 does not say "When God draws man - man is not ENABLED by God to respond".

The "phone call" is God "DRAWING man" - EVEN in Calvinism "The supernatural DRAWING of God" -- "ENABLES" man to respond.

You are arguing against - God DRAWING and man STILL being unnable to respond. And I agree that is not what Romans 3 is stating.

Romans 3 is not referencing the depravity of man IN the context of God's Drawing or "Calling on the Phone".

When we started this discussion you began by saying you supported Calvinisms view of Total Depravity and you reference Romans 3 as a support text, yet now you say this verse doesn't support Total Depravity. Which is it? I don't understand how you can claim that there are verses that support total depravity if there are no verses that ever teach man is unable to respond to the gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe that man "of his own sinful nature" is unnable to respond. But God ENABLES all mankind by drawing ALL mankind. IF we are looking for "ABILITY" within our sinful nature - we will find "none". And that is what Romans 3 is pointing out.

But if we look for "ability" in the supernatural work of God for ALL mankind - drawing ALL mankind, placing war between the children of the woman and the serpent - then we see that LOST mankind is ENABLED to respond to the Gospel by that supernatural work of God for ALL mankind.

Calvinism says that God does NOT work for ALL mankind so the "rest of mankind" has ONLY their OWN sinful nature to draw on for "ABILITY" to choose. I DO agree with the SINFUL nature having "NO ability", I do not agree that God does NOT ENABLE ALL by DRAWING ALL - so that "ABILITY" is derived from that supernatural work of God - on behalf of ALL.

In responding to your scenario - I show that it is GOD's ENABLING that allows the lost to respond. But UNLIKE calvinists who claim that God does NOT enable ALL, does not DRAW ALL, I claim that He does. IN the Calvinist scenario you will then have - those who are called to but CAN NOT respond. In the Arminian one you do not - because God creates a free will system by ENABLING all through the supernatural work of DRAWING ALL.

Even Calvinist admit that the DRAWING fully ENABLES - they just can't believe that God "Draws ALL mankind to Himself".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[William C]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I believe that man "of his own sinful nature" is unnable to respond. But God ENABLES all mankind by drawing ALL mankind. IF we are looking for "ABILITY" within our sinful nature - we will find "none". And that is what Romans 3 is pointing out.

This is what I've been talking about Bob. Where in Romans three does it talk about man's inability to respond.

To go back to the analogy once again. Where does it say that man cannot answer the phone. It doesn't! It says nothing about man's ABILITY to respond, so to use this as a support text for Total Depravity is absurd even for a Calvinists....but especially for one who claims that the drawing of God has disabled Total Depravity for all ages. This just doesn't add up Bob.

But if we look for "ability" in the supernatural work of God for ALL mankind - drawing ALL mankind, placing war between the children of the woman and the serpent - then we see that LOST mankind is ENABLED to respond to the Gospel by that supernatural work of God for ALL mankind.

Bob, don't you understand that before you can claim that God's drawing is what enables man's response you must show that man cannot respond first. You are trying to do that with passages that are talking about man's inability to seek God, not his inability to respond to God.

What I've been trying to show you is that there is no possible way you can show any support for Total Depravity in scripture because every passage you point to is about men who have already been drawn by God. So, you are actually finding verses that have to do with hardening not Total Depravity.

Remember TD is man's inability to respond to God's message because he can't understand it. And hardening results from man's refusal to heed God's message eventhough the do understand it. You are arguing for hardening, not Total Depravity.

 

[rufus]

To Bill, Scott and other Arminians:

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Romans 3: "9. No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guiltyb before God."

Ephesians 2: "1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

rufus

 

[Yelsew]

Rufus,
Context is everything. Jesus was speaking in the synagog at Capernaum to Jews when he said these things (John 6:22-58) And in 6:65 he was explaining to his disciples why he said them, "for he knew who would betray him, and why". Again, speaking to Jews about Jewish things.

I think you will agree that Jesus words were to Jews whom he came to to save from their sins, but who rejected Him. The Jews were and remain God's chosen race, they belonged to the Father, and it is the father who gives them to the Son.

The Gentiles were, and are, treated differently than the Jews, for they have no "history" with God. The Gentiles are "new territory" so to speak.

 

[rufus]

Yelsew, you said "context is everything."

Look at John 20:30-31 for the large contextual message of John's gospel and see if your comments are still appropriate.

God Bless
rufus

 

[Yelsew]

Rufus,
One more thought. Your brought up Ephesians, pointing out that He quickeneth the dead. One's belief can quicken one into action. That is, if you believe in something, for example if you are anti-war and you believed in that strong enough, you may be quickened by that belief to take action and protest or if you are a zealot, to act against the nation's war effort. It is the concept accepted in belief that quickens you.

If one believes in Jesus and feels compelled to obey and evangelize others, is it Jesus that quickened or is it your belief that quickened. The object of your belief is Jesus, the action your belief spawned is evangelization.

Yes, Jesus draws all men, but not all come. Yes those who believe take action (works) for or in support of. Those who do not believe cannot be expected to work for that in which they do not believe.

Is belief sufficient to salvation? YES! Even believing on the Name of Jesus is sufficient to salvation. Works are evidence of Salvation through belief.

And, Yes there will be those who accuse me of leaving out the Holy Spirit, and the work of the Christ, but I assure you that is not true. They influence belief, They strengthen belief, and Yes, they cause belief. BUT they do not make one believe.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by rufus:
Yelsew, you said "context is everything."

Look at John 20:30-31 for the large contextual message of John's gospel and see if your comments are still appropriate.

God Bless
rufus

John 20:30,31. There were many other signs that Jesus worked in the sight of the disciples, but they are not recorded in this book. These are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing this you may have life through his name.

YES, my comments are still appropriate. Again, Jesus was speaking to the Jews in Capernaum. John is telling "whosoever reads" the purpose for including that which is included in his writing. Remember, Salvation wasn't opened to the gentiles until the Jews rejected Jesus. None of his Apostles was a gentile! However, many gentiles became disciples during Jesus life. It was not however until after Jesus had ascended that Peter had his vision of the sheets full of "unclean" things. It was not until after Jesus ascended that Saul became Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

When you put things in their proper perspective you will see that nothing matters at the White Throne Judgment of God, but one's individual faith condition. Believers are spared, unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire. There will be no distinction between Jew and Gentile, no Calvinist vs Arminian, no Catholic vs Protestant, it will be strictly believer or unbeliever. Sin will not be a factor either because Jesus atoned for the sins of the world some 2000 years ago. That is why belief, even on the name of Jesus is sufficient to salvation.

 

[rufus]

Yelsew, I humbly but strongly reject your hermenuetical and exegetical method in handling John's gospel and many other passages.

I stand OPPOSED to your MEANINGS!

rufus