Calvinist claim they are elected.

Wes.

Just supposing that is possible? Ok, just supposing I said I no longer believe and I meant it? I would not loss my salvation.

Now you can see some difference can you? I do hope so! When I said nothing would separate me from God God meant what I said.
That is a difference isn't it? You are still into works are you? What if you no longer believed, what do you believe would happen to you?
You do not believe that nothing can separate us from God. You do not believe the scriptures. He said nothing would come between His Children and Him. Is this not what the scripture says? RO 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


johnp.

 

johnp,

You said,

Praise God!! He works in so many different and unique ways to bring His people into the flock of Christ. You really have an interesting story to tell people, as a witnessing tool, if you will.

Brother Ray

 

Jesus gave us, "the Parable of the sower", Jesus gave us, "the one will be taken the other left behind". Jesus told us we are save through faith!
Paul reiterates that. So does John James and Peter! All of whom give warnings against losing faith! If no one can lose faith then they are all liars and YOU have made them so!

 

If you are saved through faith as the scriptures say, and you lose your faith, you lose your salvation! If you are save by something other than your faith, then you have something to argue, but you cannot prove that it is anything other than our faith in God by which God saves us! (Old Testament and New Testament alike)

 

I believe that so long as I have faith in God, that God will not allow anything to come between us, nor will he lose his grasp of us. But if I lose my faith In Him, He is not 0bligated to continue to hold on to me! God is not a respecter of man, and has no obligation to any one of us. He, however, loses none who have faith in Him. Faith is the tie that binds!

 

Wes.

RO 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing Wes. No demon can put a wedge in between us and our Father. You it was that said faith can be lost but just supposing it is, it is by grace we are saved? Eph 2:8-9.

johnp.

 

And who is Paul addressing? Who is Paul talking about?

Grace does not save! If it did, You with your god given grace, could save others! But salvation is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God, not of works lest anyman should boast. Every human has grace, though not all use it. Not only that, but every man is a beneficiary of God's grace which allows us the time necessary for us to Hear the word of God and come to faith in God, which is what God looks for in each man. When it is found in us, our names are written in the lambs book of life. When we die from this natural life, the books are searched and if we are found written therein, we bypass judgment and pass from death into life everlasting with our Lord Jesus Christ.
If our names are not found written in the book of life we are judged and cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15.

 

Wes.

Me.

I cannot communicate grace as you testify to. God can.

The rest does not need reply.

johnp.

 

Me.

I cannot communicate grace as you testify to. God can.

The rest does not need reply.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]If you, being in the image of God, cannot "communicate grace", then why do you attribute such ability to God?

 

Eph 2:8-9 It is by grace you have been saved.
Why do you deny it?

johnp.

 

I do not deny being saved by God.

I do not believe grace is the savior.

I do not believe one can equate grace and God, they are not equals!

One has the other, but the other does not have the one.

Now if you can prove any of those wrong, I may listen.

 

A few verses supporting election:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.


John 6:44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.


Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


John 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.


Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

 

A few verses supporting election:

Who does Jesus identify as those whom the Father gave to Him? John 17 has some really good clues! By the way, this is an open statement

And who does the bible say were taught by God? Who attended Jesus University? Again John 17 has some really good clues that Identify those whom Jesus taught!

God the son is teaching HIS Apostles. This teaching begins in John 14:31 and occurs immediately after Judas had left to make his deal with the priests. So those whom Jesus "chose" were the 12, one of whom was of the devil. This scripture DOES NOT SUPPORT "general election" as you would have it to do.

See John 17. According to PAUL, Election presumes love of God, yet Calvinism says that men are totally depraved and cannot of themselves seek God. If you cannot seek God, how can you love God, if you do not Love God, how does Romans 8:28-30 support Election? Does being "elected" automatically make one a God lover?

That's fine, But, when one continues in the CONTEXT of Paul's teaching, you must see that Paul is telling the Romans that,

If one wants to see this as election, then one would have to see that the whole of the gentiles are the elect of God! Now how does that fit in your doctrine of election? This passage does not support the doctrine of Election!

In this passage Paul, in verses 3 through 12 is describing the APOSTLES. Then in verse 13, he turns to the Ephesians saying to them Now you too in him have heard, believed and are stamped with the seal of the Promised Holy Spirit. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word. Jesus, Praying to the FATHER says, [John 17:20-22] I pray not only for these (the 11 the core of Jesus Church) but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one.[/quote]

Verse 14 kills the notion of election. for it says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God in this case delivered by Paul to the Thessalonians. The Thessalonians came to faith the same way that All do and that is not through election! But instead through hearing the gospel message and believing. Those Thessalonian believers to whom Paul is writing are those gentiles who out of ALL gentiles heard and believed the word of God. They were not elected to that purpose before the foundation of the world individually, but as being among ALL who would here and believe out of all the gentiles. That is not election!

Jesus was indeed ELECTED before the foundation of the world to be the living stone, His only begotten. We are indeed to get close to Him. And it is our spirits that we are to offer in sacrifice to HIM. This supports Election in only ONE PERSON the PERSON of Christ Jesus!

This is the same as saying All among them who "Heard" the word became believers. It does not mean that the elect believed. For truly any out of all who hear and believe become the elect! The evidence is overwhelming! This scripture does not support Election from the foundation of the world, but rather the pronouncement that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus' sheep are the "Whosoever Believeth in Him...." The Jews did not believe in Him! They rejected Him! Thus they are not of his sheep, but are outside the sheepfold. Remember, there is the distinction between the ELECT of the FATHER and the ELECT of the SON! The Jews were, and I believe remain, God the Father's chosen race of people. While the Gospel of Jesus, God the Son was rejected among his own people, but is widely accepted and believed among the gentiles. This scripture does not support Election from before the foundation of the world!

David, An elect of God, A Jew, of God's chosen race, singing Praise to His God, whom David knows to be the God of the whole world and indeed the whole creation. Declaring some truths that God has revealed to him. Blessed is the man (David) you choose and cause to approach you. Verses 1-13 are a hymn of David about David and his relationship with God.

Conclusion, Your doctrine of election does not have a leg to stand on!

 

Hello RON35951. It's good to meet you.

'appointed' is a lovely word, like honey to my hears.

The others, as you so rightly said, did not believe, why not, because they are not His sheep?

Wes, ILUVLIGHT.

I was looking the use of the word 'appointed' up in the bible and came across this one.
Acts 10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

All the prophets testify to Christ. They did not just testify about a Christ to come but that anyone who believes in Him would receive forgiveness of their sins.
JOB 19:23 "Oh, that my words were recorded, that they were written on a scroll,
JOB 19:24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead, or engraved in rock forever!
JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
JOB 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
JOB 19:27 I myself will see him with my own eyes--I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

Good old Job. How did he know that his Redeemer lives? Not will be but is?
1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

the Spirit of Christ in them was in them. Time you got a new song.

johnp.

 

The preferred way to say it is. They were not his sheep, because they did not believe.

 

Wes, ILUVLIGHT

I understand your resistence to the doctrine of Election. I was raised in a "freewill" background myself, election was never taught, preached or discussed. But as I began to study scripture I ran into problems trying to interpret scripture dealing with election, partictularly Romans Chapter 9 and the last half of John Chapter 6.

I struggled with these verses for many years, knowing that even though Christ called me to him, I accepted the call. I saw freewill taught in scripture from Adam through Revelation. But at the same time there the words "election" and "predestination" were scattered throughout the Bible, used in ways that seemed to contradict the freewill.

One day I read a story about someone asking Charles Spurgeon about the very thing I was struggling with, how to reconcile freewill and election, He replied "They are not enemies, but the best of friends."

I began to realize that if God had not called me to him, I would not have come to him. The sinful nature that was within me was so strong, that when confronted with my sinfulness I would run from God, not to him. I only came to God because he drew me to him. Is it possible for us to go through life making our own decisions, but God is in the background working his own plan for our life? Of course it is.


What about the ones that are not saved?
Does God not love them and want them to come to him? Yes he does.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

But sin has such a strong hold all of us, that when we run from God rather than come to him. Since we would not come to God on our own, God extends an extra measure of grace to some and draws them to him that his love might be witnessed by all.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

God wants everyone to come to him, but since we will not a few are chosen and drawn to him.

Glory to God for his Grace and Mercy!!

 

Ron, that is one of the best descriptions of what I believe election/predestination and freewill are all about.

When aked if a person is Calvanist or Arminian, the best answer I have heard is "Neither, I believe in the Word-Of-God."

 

Wes.

JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Do you not see Wes that your 'preferred' way of reading that verse actually changes the meaning of it?

johnp.

 

JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Do you not see Wes that your 'preferred' way of reading that verse actually changes the meaning of it?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]No Johnp, there are only two words there "believe" and "sheep". In order to be one of Jesus sheep one must believe, therefore ALL who do believe are Jesus' sheep.

You want the scripture to say that only those who are Jesus' sheep can believe, when Jesus clearly says throughtout the Gospels and His Apostles throughtout the New Testament, that All who do believe, who come to faith by hearing, are, or become Jesus' sheep. They are not predestined as Jesus' sheep, they were predestined to be call Jesus' sheep through their FAITH IN JESUS!

The principle is simple. Look at "Beatlemania" or "Elvismania". Those who were devoted fans of either were the sheep of either. Those who flocked to the beatles were not predestined to do so, they did so because they "believed in" the beatles. Now if the beatles had come on the scene a decade sooner, they would not have been accepted! Same with Elvis. Their appearance may have been predestined, or it could have been pure chance in that the conditions were right to spawn them and their music. With Jesus, there is no question regarding his appearance, there were over 60 prophesies fulfilled by Him, and the odds of even 10 prophesies being met in one man are astronomical.