Calvinist claim they are elected.

In context the discussion surrounds the one who entered into the wedding fiest not properly dressed for the occasion. So the meaning of this verse 14 is that if you are not properly attired in faith you cannot enter into the feast, you will be apprehended and tossed out!

Look at Matthew 22:1-14 for the accurate and true meaning of verse 14. It does not support the doctrine of election!

 

I challenge you to prove that "God extends an extra measure of grace to some". You see that would make God a respecter of men. God's grace is the same for ALL men, there are no differences among men that make them noteworthy enough for God to choose some, out of the whole, for the free gift of Salvation that is given ONLY to those who POSSESS faith. After all the scriptures declare that it is God's desire than NONE should perish. To say that he chooses from among them, is pure sillyness.

God noticed Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, David, etc., Not because they were special, but because they POSSESSED faith in God!

 

Wes.

The question is a good question why don't you answer it. If you prefer the verse to read, "All those who don't believe are not my sheep." Then you are not wrong except this is not the truth that Jesus was explaining here.

I personally could not give a fig what the scriptures say. This is not a personal thing to me. I want to know what the scriptures say and this scripture says exactly what you don't want it to mean otherwise you would read it as it is.

Answer the question why don't you? Do you not see Wes that your 'preferred' way of reading that verse actually changes the meaning of it?

Yes or no will do.

johnp.

 

Wes.

No Wes there are 11 words one full stop and two numbers representing 26 but I know what you mean. You mean you don't like the one that looks like 'because'! 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
Because 'because' slays you. Is that right?

johnp.

 

It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus was telling the Jews they are not his sheep because the Father had not given them to Jesus to be his sheep. But that those whom the father did give to the Son are His sheep. What is it the Father Gave to the Son?

Jesus distinguishes between the Elect of God, given to the Son, and All others who will receive the free Gift of Salvation through faith as follows:

Now I don't know about you, but I understand that to mean the Apostles are "the elect" because they are the ones taught by God! And that all who believe in Jesus are Jesus' sheep because they HEAR his voice (the word of God) and Believe in HIM!

[ January 16, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Wes, Outwest ]

 

Great Explanation ILUVLIGHT!
posted 16-01-2005 09:38

 

Again,
A great explanation.

However, for the sake of this discussion, it is important to focus on exactly who was given to Jesus by the Father. The Jews as a nation were not included. However the 12 were, and of course the periphery of believers close to them and those that Jesus personally "touched", AND all who learn to believe through the teachings of the Apostles are, regardless of where they are from be it Jew, or Gentile.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

I take it you are a city dweller man!
Yet the analogy of our God being a Shepherd always struck me as an odd anology. I did entertain the thought for awhile we might taste better than pagans and that He chose us for that reason, that we tasted better. But then I leant that it was really nothing in us that made Him chose us. Those He chose that is. It was a relief, not a huge one, I did not seriously entertain the idea but it needed consideration, that is all a shepherd does you know, he keeps the flock from being lost so he can eat them, as I was saying it was a relief to realise that mint sauce would not be smeared all over me one sunny Sunday afternoon!
I can't understand why Wes thinks it a 'great explanation' though!

I digress.

The Jews as a nation were not included. If you mean that everyone in the Kingdom of Israel, the type that is, were not included I would agree with you but why do you say included? Do you mean not included because they did not include themselves by availing themselves of belief?
However the 12 were... So the twelve were included by Christ or by themselves?
But why was anyone given to Jesus? If they are given then the given have no choice, they are given. If as a free choice I go to Jesus I cannot be said to be given but that I went to Him.

I hear Bush has the same problem. Strange thing about election. Hard to prove to those who object but it comes quite naturally to those in office.

johnp.

 

The Calvinst and Primitive Baptist brethren and those others that embrace like belief about election do not have to prove anything. I was at one time in the past moderator of this forum. During my time as moderator no one who was Calvinist was converted to an Arminian or vice versa. These are interesting subjects but none to my knowledge have convinced the gainsayer. The doctrine of election is biblical and come what may both sides will debate this doctrine of election until the Lords return. We see as through a glass darkly, soon face to face. We agree to disagree and when the Lord comes we will know!... Brother Glen

 

Again Wes, jumping 7 chapters...Differant time, place, people and context. Bad, Bad, Bad,

Jesus' statements where those who believe and those who don't those who are His sheep and those He DIDN't choose. Not Jews or Gentiles but you always get that confused don't you? I know you can't believe that.... neither could the others after Jesus said the same in John 6... you know the chapter where you can find the Arminians? John 6.65-66

 

ILUVLIGHT.

RO 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham.
RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

No. All the ones born in the country and who are of their faith are still Israelites. Jews.
It is possible for a gentile to convert to the Jewish faith or to become a member of the Jewish nation. Either of these two things would make him cease to be a gentile.

No. The elect are elect of God and He creates us and places us all wherever He wishes. The family of God are descended from many peoples. From every tribe, nation and language. After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." Rev 7:9-10.

You are confusing the type and the reality? A Jew is a Jew if he is born in Israel or has Jewish parents or is naturalised or becomes of their faith.
Israel is a type for the Church. As in Israel there are members who are of the faith of Abraham and there are those that are not of the faith of Abraham, and so it is in the Church. Some are unspiritual and some are spirit filled.

No. The ones Christ said were not His sheep were reject by God not the other way round. They do not believe because they are not His sheep. John 10:26.
The NIV and KJV in this passage are making reference to the fact that they were Jews not a particular branch. I would venture to say that the Jews in the passage are the religeous leaders by the way they questioned and condemned Jesus. Not that all men are not like that but it looks like these carried authority with them.

Why reverse the one that rejects It is of no benefit to you?

What do you mean?

I think your thought needs more thinking through. Is it a question? Is it a statement?
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
How do you understand that verse?

johnp.

 

The Jews were not given to Jesus, Jesus was one of them, born a Jew! He came into his own and his own received him not!

Keep your facts straight!

 

ILUVLIGHT.

We were talking about the Jew not the Palestinians. To be clasified a Jew you need only be a citizen of Israel, it is not just a religious designation.

Yasser Arafat died recently. The Palestinians are illegal settlers in a land belonging to another. The deeds to the land are well known and the rightful owners have reclaimed their property after a prolong absence. Where proof can be provided that a man's possessions have been misappropriated then those possessions should be returned to him. The UN has no authority to overturn God's division of the land that God gave to Abraham. God ensured that the Jew received back their land, in part at least for now, but in the case so far for the North American native he has not seen fit to do so but He has for the blacks in South Africa and Zimbabwe. That's just in case someone thinks I'm a crank over the state of Israel.
The Israeli's are under the same command as the Palestinians, love your neighbour as yourself. Where this is disobeyed the punishment for it will be received in due course to the Jew as well as to the Palestinian.
People must live together or the winner takes all. The Palestinians made the wrong decision in relying on the Muslim world to destroy Israel instead of joining the Jew. Be in peace with one another as the command of God insists we all be. Be at peace and look to the good of the other. But we venture into the realm of another thread.

In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.

But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

Because those that did reject Him were not His sheep and those that accepted were His sheep. Why reverse the order it does you no good?
He did not say they were not because they did not believe but they did not believe because they were not His sheep. Why reverse the order it does you no good?

You get that last quote wrong or what? Do you mean, "You can't deny that we do first trust in Christ."? If yes then I can tell you that this statement makes no sense to me. So how you can state the fact that I can't deny something I can't understand?

What do you mean?

All you have done is restate in the same words you used before. I asked you to explain to me what you mean not what it says.
What does Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Mean to you?

johnp.