Calvinist claim they are elected.

Wes.

Yes, I will ask you the question ILUVLIGHT asked you.

Could you show with scripture why you believe that you are elect because you believe? I haven't seen any scriptures that support this at all.

That is in reference to, I believe, therefore I am an Elect! Glory Halelujah! What you said.

johnp.

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

At first until he was corrected by the Lord.

What, a limited universalism?

The question itself causes problems by the way it is worded or what you believe the terms mean. I can say that no Gentile is saved. I can say that not all of the chosen nation will be saved.
When talking about scripture you must bear in mind that everything comes in two's, at least. The type and the reality. Israel, as a genetic entity, is used as a type. Spiritual Israel is the reality of that type. An Israelite would be a Gentile if he is not after Abraham/Isaac. Christianity is Israel. The Chosen Nation. In Revelation we read that there will be people from every tribe and nation and language. Therefore, if we use the term 'Gentile' to mean those not born in Palestine, none Jew, then there must be Gentiles included in election because you have them there in Heaven in Revelation.
As a Spiritual Israelite then I would say there is no Gentile in Heaven. Only the Children of Abraham are there. The spiritual came first, true Israel. All else are Gentile Dogs prepared for destruction and there ain't nothing we can do about it but help gather in the chosen and to be calling out a warning.

johnp.

 

They happen every 2 to 4 years, and I always vote in them.
Seriously, there is too much presumption placed on the word "election". Hence, let me put it like this:

God's existence is not the same as ours. So long as we're on this earth, we're limited to finite space and finite time. God is not limited to a finte space and finite time. Hence, God knows who will and will not receive Him before they do so. He would have known before the creation of the universe. However, God did not decide who was and was not going to receive him. Even though he knows beforehand, he leaves that up to each of us individually, freely, and without duress or coercion.

 

Could you show with scripture why you believe that you are elect because you believe? I haven't seen any scriptures that support this at all.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]A little sarcastic levity, ILUVLIGHT!

I was seizing the moment with a tongue in cheek jab at Calvinism's elect, just like Johnv did here:

 

I believe there is both individual election and national election.

Clearly the bible teaches both.

National Election

Nations are chosen to be invited. They are granted entrance into covenant with God by God's invitation and initiative. It was first granted to the Jews and then the Gentiles as Romans 1 clearly teaches.

The first covenant was entered through circumcision the second is entered through faith.

Individual Election

Individuals within those nations are chosen for noble purposes such as being a prophet or an apostle. This should not be confused with election unto salvation, which is the common error made by Calvinists.

In addition, it should be noted that the term "elect one" was commonly used to describe a Jewish believer in biblical times, because of their former unique status as God's chosen people. This too can cause confusion as individuals seek to find biblical support for their system.

 

Take a bow, johnv, as I stand to applaud you! Within the constraints of linear time we cannot fathom the foreknowledge of God. Through His eyes June 25, 565 and June 25, 2565 are no different. He is not constrained by a day or date, centuries or time. Why does God know who will or will not accept Him? He has seen the whole panorama of human history in a single view from the In the beginning of Genesis to the Amen of the Revelation.

Through the eyes of one of the young people at church, "So, dude, what you're saying is like, there's this..." (Let me paraphrase the rest.)

The whole of the human existence - in the context of a movie - is laid before us. God has written, produced and presented it. He has seen it in its entirety, knows each character and their place and time in history.

More importantly, He has seen the conclusion of the story, in its entirety, while we see only the part we play and a limited view of what has passed.

Because He has heard each word, measured each motive, grieved and rejoiced at each decision that we see as the present; but passed before the eyes of God before the foundation of the earth.

We call some the elect because we see their past. God calls them that because He has seen their (our) future.

 

(John bows low, doffing his cap)

 

I also applaud loud and long. You have stated God well.

But, from what point in man's time are "the elect" determined? Did God, before he created, elect a certain amount of each subsequent generation of man and write their names in the Book of Life before creation, or did he establish the book of life, so that those who come to faith in him get their names written therein in preparation for Judgment?

 

Show me where and then we'll chat.

 

Scripture would disagree with you, as it attributes omniscience to God. Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all-knowing, not just current-knowing.

 

ILUVLIGHT, I would encourage you to re-think this statement. This is called "open-theism", it is a very dangerous teaching. It borders on heresy, if it is not heresy. I am not calling you a heretic, I just believe you spoke before considering the full ramifications of your statement. Unfortunately, there are those in our Baptist churches, universities & seminaries who hold and teach this heretical view.

It clearly denies that God is omniscient. The Bible teaches that God knows the end from the beginning. That God knows the end from the beginning does not validate the theology of calvinism. God does give us the ability to choose, is He surprized by our choice?--certainly not! God created time and is not bound by it, He knows all things past, present, future.

Bro Tony

 

Mike,

I guess I am not sure the meaning of your question. Why would you have a problem with God knowing all and considering all. If God knows the end from the beginning, then what else is left? The omniscience of God leave out the possibility of surprize.

Your Brother,
Bro Tony

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

posted 29 December, 2004 17:10

No way to enter. There is no way for many. No possibility of a change of Heart. He has chosen.

We are saved by the will of God who chose us in eternity. Jesus was the means He used to save us.

MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

There's two. Any good?

Through Isaac. Only those that come from spiritual Israel. RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
The Church is Israel. They are The only elect I've read about in scripture that I knew for a fact were elect were the Jews descendants of Jacob.

Salvation was always available to those God chose. What happened before the Jews became a nation? Ninevah was saved. Where did Naomi's Ruth come from? A Moabite woman and directly in line to the King of Kings. You are elect if you are elect. His Children are true Israel. The chosen people.
What happened before the Jews became a nation? Spiritual Israel was already a going concern.

Do you determine what to expect to find in scripture? (That's the best I could do with that sentence.)

johnp.

 

Lacking the exegetical skills of my more learned brothers:


From Strong's referring to the word repent in Genesis 6:6

Strong's number 5162

na^cham: A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue;

First of all, we must reject the notion that God erred in creating mankind and was quickened undo His grievous mistake. His repentance is heard as a sigh of sorrow not a contrite plea for mercy.

God created the world already knowing the grief of the Fall and despair caused by sin. He knew of His satisfaction in a crucified Christ. He knew that some would come Home and others would not.

Repentance in this sense speaks of a God full of the knowledge of all time and not a passive, "Let's see how this turns out" mind. For God to groan in remorse, sorrow and grief says that He is a God with an infinite capacity to love.

Proponents of this Openness theology say that God can only love by reacting to the various perils and pitfalls of their lives. God does not react. He acted in a place called Calvary.