Calvinist claim they are elected.

A few reasons -

1. I agree with Spurgeon, and he says it better than I could.
2. Spurgeon has a good reputation among Baptists, and I'm just another anonymous nut so why should you believe me anyway?
3. I don't have time.
4. If there aren't any dead guys who said what I'm saying then I'm probably wrong.
5. If someone won't listen to a dead man then he won't listen to a live man either.

 

Hello ILUVLIGHT.

To stop asking questions! Why whoever said anything about 'stop asking questions'?

posted 30 December, 2004 09:45

That is always the way with your own children. To say that God's provision is insufficient to you shows how far out you are from the Head. Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
The Lord has provided teachers, find one.

Rom 9:19 is not asking a question for you to answer, it is the question posed to God by us. The answer is not for you, the question is. "You will say to me then why does He still find fault?" The answer comes back, "Who the Hell do you think you are talking to? You are not here to question Me."
You know what is meant by irresistable grace, why do you try to muddy the water with your obscurantism? All men resist the enemy, we are rebels. Who are these uncircumcised wretches that you hold before us as God's Children in Acts 17:51?

I bet He can if you are the judge. Your God is constrained and helpless. All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" DA 4:35
What pleases Him is law and law is subject to His Sovereignity. What God is is law. The law is laid down on us to obey not for God to obey. You think there is something equal in creation and God? God and man under law!
God cannot sin. Not because He keeps the law but the law reflects His character in the presence of sin. With the law He is dealing with law breakers. How can those laws be applicable to the Holy One?
He is the first commandment. He loves Himself beyond measure and revels in His glory. Who is this who can save a man yet determines that the man should go to Hell and casts him away into outer darkness. Do we dare apply the second command and find Him guilty for not loving His neighbour?
It's no better from the Arminian perspective is it? God does not interfer. He just sits there while some awful things happen and does not lift a finger to help as the Samaritan did when he saw need. Guilty is He? You tell Him. About time we had someone plucky enough to put Him back in His box.

johnp.

 

Here's one way.

I'm not sure why you think this passage is a problem for Calvinists. </font>[/QUOTE]If God does everything without us then there is no responsibility on our part.

I just happen to believe that God in His sovereignty created us with a brain and the ability to make choices. So God through us and in us. God will carry out His part but he is waitng for us to carry out our part.

A true 100 Calvinist would never worry about liberalism because he would claim that is God's peerfect will and therefore he could be lazy and sit by and do nothing. But I have never met a true Calvinist. Maybe 95% but not 100 percent. Even Calvin was not a true Calvinist because he recognized weaknesses in his theology.

 

Here's one way.

I'm not sure why you think this passage is a problem for Calvinists. </font>[/QUOTE]If God does everything without us then there is no responsibility on our part.

I just happen to believe that God in His sovereignty created us with a brain and the ability to make choices. So God through us and in us. God will carry out His part but he is waitng for us to carry out our part.

A true 100 Calvinist would never worry about liberalism because he would claim that is God's peerfect will and therefore he could be lazy and sit by and do nothing. But I have never met a true Calvinist. Maybe 95% but not 100 percent. Even Calvin was not a true Calvinist because he recognized weaknesses in his theology. </font>[/QUOTE]What you are talking about is hyper-calvinism, not Calvinism. Calvinists do not deny responsibility.

How much of salvation is God's part and how much do we get credit for?

 

whatever,

Salvation, I believe is all of God, but He tells us to 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling.' We are not working for Heaven or our hope of everlasting life. On the other hand, we are to live a life of responsibility toward Him. God has said, 'Be ye holy for I am holy.' [I Peter 1:16]

 

Salvation, I believe is all of God, but He tells us to 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling.' We are not working for Heaven or our hope of everlasting life. On the other hand, we are to live a life of responsibility toward Him. God has said, 'Be ye holy for I am holy.' [I Peter 1:16] </font>[/QUOTE]I agree completely. That was just in response to the claim by "gb93433" that "God will carry out His part but he is waitng for us to carry out our part." I don't know if he really meant that, but it is what he said.

 

Without God there is no salvation for man.

Without man's faith in God, there is no salvation for man.

Both statements are equally true!

 

And Calvinists agree with both statements. We just would never characterize faith as being "our part" in salvation. Salvation is all of God, from start to finish.

 

And Calvinists agree with both statements. We just would never characterize faith as being "our part" in salvation. Salvation is all of God, from start to finish. </font>[/QUOTE]Unless you are directly involved in any major sporting event, lets say the Sugarbowl for instance, You have contributed nothing to it, except maybe paid for admission to see the actual contest. But even then you contribute nothing toward the outcome of play. Now as a witness to the event, you can either believe the outcome and walk away satisfied that "your participation" as a spectator is evidence of the event, or you can walk away grumbling "I can't believe it". Either way you contributed nothing to the play on the field. It is completely out of your control, and you are left to determine in your own mind if what you observed is true or false. YOUR CHOICE indicates what you believe the result to be.

Our Salvation is quite similar to that event. We can only be vicarious spectators to the events that took place long ago. It is a completed event, nothing left to do in the performance of the event, the outcome is a "known" to those who lived it, but not to us who only have the recorded details of the event. That is where believing comes into play, we are not real time observers, only vicarious spectators. So having what we do, the knowledge contained in the Word of God, we are confronted with a choice. BELIEVE IT OR NOT!

The word of God tells us "that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life". That is a promise to those who are willing to risk (expose) themselves to the test of belief.

So Whatever, I agree that Salvation is entirely of God, and I believe that it is a completed work of God for those who accept the challenge AND believe.

It will never be a completed work of God for those who do not believe. That is why they are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20).

 

Hi Mike,

You seem to be saying that, if our faith saves us, then that faith cannot have been given to us. I don't think you can prove that. Can you?

BTW, I have more than one verse, but God only has to say it once for me to believe it.

 

Your last sentence tells all! You are "closed" to discovering truth.

 

ILUVLIGHT

Your original proposition was truly challenging.

Did anyone ever answer it? (It seems that the thread moved away).

In Christ

Wayne

 

The idea that Faith is a gift from God is not unigue to Calvinists but can be found in classic Arminians preachers such as John Wesley and Menno Simmons as well as Lutheran theologians.

Jesus saying "thy faith" does not give any argument for those who oppose the orthodox Protestant position. From a practical standpoint it is one's faith but from a theological standpoint as Paul states in Ephesians 2, the faith that person posseses is from God and not something they conjured up.

 

Arminians affirm that faith comes from God. Faith comes from hearing the word of God, therefore we can claim, just as you do, that faith is from God. Just because we don't believe the word irresistably causes faith in the lives the elect few, doesn't mean we don't affirm that faith is from God. That is a strawman.

 

The problem lies in the fact that Americans often interpret through different eyes than the Jewish writers of the OT and NT. According to the Jewish writers they saw everything as originating from God including evil and sin. According to our philosophy (which is more Greek) we do not. We see each item as having separate origins distinct from one another.

If one believes everything originates from God then he must believe that all sin originates from God too. If faith is from God then lack of faith cannot be from man. The Jews would have seen a big circle and inside that circle is God which pervades everything. God is a part of everything in that circle. Whereas we in America has a different philosophical thinking. We put things in different boxes/categories.

Looking at things from a Jewish point of view by the virure of good and holy there must bad and evil. You cannot have one without the other. It is God who provided the opportunity to sin and the opportunity to do good. If there were only opportunity to do good there would be no sin. Therefore God created sin in that sense.

So would you say God hardened Pharaoh's heart or Pharaoh hardened his heart? Scripture declares both.

Ex. 8:15, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."

Ex. 8:19, "Then the magicians said to Pharaoh , "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened , and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."

Ex. 8:32, "32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go."

Ex. 9:7, "Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go."

[ January 01, 2005, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]

 

What strawman? I am not attacking Armianianism. I just stated what you wrote. Arminians affirm that faith comes from God. That is the orthodox position whether you are Calvinist, Arminian, or Lutheran in theology.

To say as some imply that one's faith is not a gift from God contradicts Calvinist, classic Arminian, and Lutheran theology and borders on work salvation. My point is that the belief that Faith is a gift from God is not unique to Calvinism but is the historic belief of all orthodox Protestants.

 

So would you say God hardened Pharaoh's heart or Pharaoh hardened his heart? Scripture declares both. </font>[/QUOTE]I'd say both. I'd also say that it is I who believes, but I'd still not characterize my belief as my part in salvation.

 

Paul does not state in Ephesians that faith is from God. God has NO FAITH to give to man. If you can prove otherwise, please do so.

God, through His Word, and by the Holy Spirit gives man every reason to have FAITH, but does not give man THE FAITH.