Calvinist claim they are elected.

Whatever,
If you have faith in God, that is 'your part' in God saving you, because God does not save those who lack faith! And Yes, it is YOUR FAITH, because God does not save one based on the faith of another.

 

I said it was my faith. It is I who believes. I believe that God has saved me, continues to save me, and will ultimately save me, without any contribution on my part whatsoever.

 

So are you sayimng that it is possible to have salvation without any works?

How does your statement compare to Mt. 24:13, "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

I would take a different position in that salvation is secured by Christ but that does not negate my responsibility. Slavation is different than being saved. Salvation is secured in Christ but being saved requires belief. Salvation has nothing to do with me but my being saved requires action on my part. I must believe.

 

So are you sayimng that it is possible to have salvation without any works? </font>[/QUOTE]Not at all. I'm saying that works don't contribute anything to my salvation.

I don't think Jesus meant that our endurance contributes to our salvation.

I'll say it again - I must believe. My faith is a necessary condition for my salvation but it is not my contribution to my salvation. I'm not sure what you mean by salvation being different than being saved. Can you elaborate?

 

What strawman? I am not attacking Armianianism. I just stated what you wrote. Arminians affirm that faith comes from God. That is the orthodox position whether you are Calvinist, Arminian, or Lutheran in theology.

To say as some imply that one's faith is not a gift from God contradicts Calvinist, classic Arminian, and Lutheran theology and borders on work salvation. My point is that the belief that Faith is a gift from God is not unique to Calvinism but is the historic belief of all orthodox Protestants. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually this is the first thing I "wrote" and I was agreeing with your point. Those who believe Arminians think we must "conjure up faith" and that its not from God are attacking a strawman.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

 

Butting in - there is at least one poster here who is convinced that faith cannot possibly be given by God to a person. Maybe you can convince him otherwise. I'm not even sure where to start.

 

I think I may be able to clear something up.

Calvinists don't believe salvation is unconditional, they believe election is unconditional. In their system God elects to save certain people unconditionally, but in order for them to actually be saved there are some conditions they must meet, which He certainly brings to pass.

I hope that clarifies things.

 

Salvation is offered to all and is secured by Christ but nobody will be saved unless they believe.

Salvation exists because of Christ even though there are non-believers and not all will be saved.

 

Butting in - there is at least one poster here who is convinced that faith cannot possibly be given by God to a person. Maybe you can convince him otherwise. I'm not even sure where to start. </font>[/QUOTE]Its probably a semanatical difference. He probably means that God doesn't irresistable cause men to have faith. Or it may be he think Calvinists believe that its God's faith, not mans? I don't know?

 

I'm not sure either. This is a typical statement from Wes, a few posts up on this page:

Like I said, I'm not sure where to start.

 

Kiffen, further expanation may be of some help.

If that is what you believe, then I must say to you that Calvinist, Classic Arminian and Lutheran Theology must be absolutely wrong! They are not reading the same Holy Scriptures that I have before me.

There is one verse only that seems to say what you say about faith, that verse, Ephesians 2:8,9, has been misinterpreted by all who insist that it says that God gives faith! The gift of God in Ephesians 2:8,9, and all the rest of the New Testament, is Salvation. The conditions for man's salvation ARE these: It is NOT OF WORKS (not earned), God's grace toward us (unilateral), OUR FAITH in God (also unilateral). We cannot earn a gift, we are not God, the FAITH part is strictly human. Throughout the New Testament, except for this one scripture, Faith is described or used as something inherent in man and man's faith must have as its object, Jesus, the Son of God, even HIS NAME! Faith is illustrated as something that one can gain and lose..."Parable of the Sower". Faith is illustrated as what each individual must possess to be saved, "two shall be,...one shall be taken the other left behind".

Faith is commanded of us! That which is commanded must be inherent within us else we cannot obey the command! We cannot do that which is not inherent in us. Faith quite simply is not a gift of God, he created us with the ability to have faith! And It is FAITH by which God judges us! To give you an example of what I mean, (this is only 3 verses out of 279 in the NEW TESTAMENT that contain the word "faith").

You will notice that Jesus does not speak of "the faith the Father and I gave to you", as you insist that Paul is declaring in Ephesians 2:8,9. Then there are illustrations that Jesus gave us that deal with US HAVING FAITH! Here's a couple of those.

The seeds are Reasons to have faith! What grows from the seeds is FAITH!

What differentiates between taken and left is the FAITH in God of those taken.

 

Can you prove this idea that we must be able to obey if we are to be held accountable for not obeying?

 

Does it need proving?

Let's try it with something other than faith. Try saving yourself. No matter how hard you try, You cannot do so, because it is not in you to be able to do so! That is why we ARE NOT told to do so in Scripture.

But, we are told throughout scripture to have faith. To the best of my knowledge there is no store where one can purchase faith. There is no one who has faith that can or will give me or you any of theirs, though I would give you some of mine if I could. The Holy Spirit is not toting around a big sack of FAITH handing it out to only "the elect", or those who "will hear the word of God". Shoot, you wouldn't believe it if he was, 'cause, according to your understanding you wouldn't accept it if it were given to you, you're just not able to do so.

Scripture tells us that our faith comes from hearing (receiving knowledge), and hearing from the word of God. If ALL men do not have the ability to "hear" the word of God, then No man has it. We are ALL made in the image of God, All with the same attributes (not speaking of physical), and those attributes included the ability to love, whether or not we use it; the ability to be merciful, whether or not we use it; the ability to be just, whether or not we use it; the ability to hate, which we should suppress; the ability to be kind to others, etc., But we do not have to use those abilities even though we are commanded to do so. SAME with FAITH. We have the ability to have FAITH, whether or not we use that ability. But we do not have the ability to save ourselves, that ability is not in us!

This may not be "proof", but it is "good reasoning". We are held accountable for those abilities that God gave us when he made us in His image. Whether or not we use them is entirely up to us, and most of the time we choose to not use them, thus we make ourselves inhospitable, and unfaithful to God. Besides our Salvation, proper use of the attributes of God that reside in us, is one reason we must be born again, dying to self and being raised in Christ.

 

God gave His people a whole set of commandments, and the testimony of the Bible is that none of them were able to keep those commandments. If you are correct then God has no right to hold them accountable for not keeping the law. So yes, it needs proving.

Actually, it is "begging the question". As evidence of your assertion you state that God commands us to believe, therefore we must be able to believe, which is your assertion.

 

Only one who does not believe that JESUS is GOD THE SON, would reject this as a Command from God that we have faith! Faith and Believing are interchangeable, like love and marriage, they go together like a horse and carriage.

Is that proof enough or should I post all 279 instances of Faith in the NEW TESTAMENT? The vast majority of which refer to faith as OUR FAITH, YOUR FAITH, etc. and not faith that is Given to us by God.

 

Only one who does not believe that JESUS is GOD THE SON, would reject this as a Command from God that we have faith! Faith and Believing are interchangeable, like love and marriage, they go together like a horse and carriage.

Is that proof enough or should I post all 279 instances of Faith in the NEW TESTAMENT? The vast majority of which refer to faith as OUR FAITH, YOUR FAITH, etc. and not faith that is Given to us by God. </font>[/QUOTE]Hold on just a minute - I never said that faith was not commanded. Of course it is. Repentance is commanded too. That is not what I asked you to prove.

You asserted that if we are unable to do something then we cannot be held accountable for not doing it. That's what you need to prove.

 

Scripture over and over again states that man cannot believe except by the Grace of God that produces faith in Him.

Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God."

"all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles" (Acts 14:27)

"On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed" (Acts 18:27)

"'So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life'" (Acts 11:18)

Phil. 1:29
" For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,"

For one to believe or have Faith and Repentance in Christ, requires the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith, Repentance towards God is the work of God in one's life. Though Calvinists, Arminians and Lutherans will not agree on how exactly this happens ALL historically have affirmed that Faith is a Gift from God.


You can reject Historic Protestant beliefs on this but the error of this is that if faith is conjured up by man himself then Faith is a work and thus Salvation is made a work and not a Gift. That is why Protestants of all banners were quick to attribute Faith as a work of God in the Sinner.


John Gill (Calvinist)
"and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God:"

Matthew Henry (Calvinist)
" The grace that saves them is the free undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves them, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus, by means of which they come to partake of the great blessings of the gospel; and both that faith and that salvation on which it has so great an influence are the gift of God. "

Formula of Concord (Lutheran)
"Faith is not a work of man, but the gift of God. Even grace, we receive by grace. So faith is not a merit, on whose basis we are proclaimed righteous, but by faith man owns the perfect righteousness of Christ"

Adam Clark (Arminian)
"But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced"

John Wesley (Arminian)
"Grace, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift. Faith, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert, receives the heavenly blessing. And this is not of yourselves - This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God."

To simply say things like OUR FAITH, YOUR FAITH, etc...does not in the least contradict this for it is YOUR FAITH But it is a Faith that has been worked into you by Grace from the Holy Spirit. So from a practical standpoint it is your Faith but from a theological standpoint, this Faith was given by the Grace of God throught the Work of the Holy Spirit.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)

God conveys faith into the hearts of sinners by the Word of God which is the Sword of the Holy Spirit. It is not in our ability to do this without the Work of the Holy Spirit by the Word of God.


Now Arminians will not agree with Calvinists,and Lutherans on how this happens for Arminians believe in Free Will while Calvinists and Lutherans reject Free Will but they ALL agree that in some way God worked this Faith in a person NOT that they conjured it up or had the ability within themselves.

 

Only one who does not believe that JESUS is GOD THE SON, would reject this as a Command from God that we have faith! Faith and Believing are interchangeable, like love and marriage, they go together like a horse and carriage.

Is that proof enough or should I post all 279 instances of Faith in the NEW TESTAMENT? The vast majority of which refer to faith as OUR FAITH, YOUR FAITH, etc. and not faith that is Given to us by God. </font>[/QUOTE]Hold on just a minute - I never said that faith was not commanded. Of course it is. Repentance is commanded too. That is not what I asked you to prove.

You asserted that if we are unable to do something then we cannot be held accountable for not doing it. That's what you need to prove. </font>[/QUOTE]I gave you clear example that proves that we are not held accountable for that which we are not capable.

If we are not told to do something, how can we be held accountable for not doing it?

We are told to HAVE FAITH. We are not told to save ourselves.

We are held accountable for NOT HAVING FAITH. We are not held accountable for not saving ourselves.

 

Kiffen,
Jesus says it differently

 

Wes,

Faith is not a command of God. If it was a command then by doing it, it would be a work, which it cannot be due to the numerous scriptures which contrast works and faith.

If something is accountable then doing it is a work and the work done is meritable. If one does as he is told, one has been righteous in hjs own in that matter. If faith then were our righteous response to the gospel and salvation hinges on our righteous response then we are saved not by the righteousness of God but our own righteousness.

Likewise we would have reason to boast in something other than the cross of Christ, namely our righteous response of faith that those 'lesser' men now in hell failed to do.

But when I used the word faith, I mean belief. Faith is composed of belief and the work that follows true belief. Sometimes the word 'faith' includes not only belief but its corresponding work.

Consider this passage from Rom 10:
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Many other places say it like this:

16“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Is the Bible contradicting itself? Romans tells us we must believe AND confess in order to be saved, but John tells us that we need just to believe.

Believing is not a choice and therefore not a work. Confessing is a choice and therefore it is a work. But it is a work done because we believe already. As Ephesians tells us:
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Salvation is not from ourselves? That is not what the passage is saying. If faith is the condition we supply in order to obtain salvation, then how is salvation a gift? We did something to get it. Rather faith is a gift from God so that we may know of the salvation God has freely provided to us.

It is not a work of man, which is what every choice of man is, a work, and everything we do must be accountable to God. Rom 2:6... 6God “will give to each person according to what he has done." Is heaven obtained by our own work?

If belief then is a choice of you and not a gift of God to you, please explain why you chose to believe. No one has explained yet without boasting upon themselves.

mikew