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Calvinist listen up
- Thread starter MB
- Start date
You are wrong Paul submitted to Christ by his own freewill.
Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Submission is Pauls choice. No where does the Bible ever say man cannot choose Christ. This is imagined by Calvinist.
MB
You loose Christ draws all men.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
My intention is not to win or to lose, MB...
It's to show what the Bible is stating about this subject.
There is a context for John 12:32, and there is a context for the others as well.
For now, let's consider another passage that says something very similar to John 6:44, yet does so with still more information.
I'll even highlight the text in emphasis of the words.
The statement I believe you made was this:
Respectfully, yes it does.
The Bible defines who comes to Christ and who does not...
Why some believe on Him and why most do not.
I've shown many passages in other threads that state this unequivocally.
But for the sake of the readers who may not have seen them, here is yet another statement that further defines the "whosoever believeth"...
Those who come to ( believe on ) Jesus Christ:
" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ).
Here we see that the Lord Jesus Himself tells us who can and cannot come to Him, and why.
No man can come to Him, except it was given to that person by the Father to do so.
Therefore, anyone who truly believes on Christ does so because it was given to that person to come to Christ.
This agrees with Philippians 1:29:
" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"
Yet again we see this truth re-iterated time and again in Scripture.
No man can come to Christ unless God does something first.
How many does He do it for?
Everyone?
Then all men who hear the word of God will believe on Christ because God's calling and election are done in His power, not the power of imperfect and powerless men.
When God saves someone, it is miraculous thing and very powerful in both its conviction of sin and its ability to keep those whom He saves ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
But we both know that not all who hear the Gospel choose to believe it;
Because not all men have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 and many more ), and not all men have faith ( 1 Thessalonians 3:2 ).
Because mankind, left to ourselves in our perishing state, think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
Because the "natural man" does not welcome the things of the Spirit of God ( one of which is the everlasting Gospel ), neither can He know, because those things are spiritually ( by the Spirit ) discerned ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ).
But God, in His great grace and mercy towards rebellious mankind ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 2:1-10 ), has decided to save some of us for Himself and to reserve the rest for everlasting and just punishment.
Let us praise Him for His mercy and grace, shall we?
For without His choosing us ( Psalms 65:4, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), we would have never chosen to believe His words.
Without Him opening our hearts as He did for Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), none of us would have ever chosen to believe on the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins, nor would we want to obey God from a heart of gratitude for His unspeakable gift.
I wish you well, sir, and this is my last reply in this thread.
Last edited:
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Yes there are. I've read every post.
I have noticed the patient and kind words that Dave Gilbert has posted. Not a single hostile word. This says much about his walk with Jesus and his love for others.
These are the collection of Bible verses that support reformed theology. There are more.
John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)
Born Again to a Living Hope
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Yes, it is and these are the very words of Jesus Christ.
Yes they are but they are not addressed to anyone except the disciples. Christ was not preaching to the masses when He said this to them. Not to mention God drew Judas yet he was still lost and Christ called him a devil. There drawing did not make them elect because they were already elect. John 12 :32 says Christ draws all men to Him self.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Christ was lifted up so does this mean all men are saved? No but it does means all men can come to Christ. Calvinism denys this is true
Not everything in the Bible can be applied to everyone. Election is not possible for the Gentiles and neither will Gentiles replace the Jews.
MB
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
You are mistaken. There is a distinction between the Jews who followed and Jesus talking to the twelve in verse 70. Any follower of Jesus can be called a 'disciple'. It's clear from verse 60 that many of these followers left.
Responding to Difficult Doctrine – John 6:41- 71 | Grace Bible Church
Your last comment is quickly refuted by Acts 13:48
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
My Understanding of the Biblical Doctrine of Election | Bible.org
May God bless you.
The YLT directly from the Greek says it this way.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
The same Paul wrote;
Act 16:31 and they said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved—thou and thy house;
The only way you can prove Gentiles can be elect is to show a Gentile in the Bible is elect. There is no election for Gentiles men claiming they are elect when they are not Jews will be held accountable.
MB
Paul's letter to the Gentile Thessalonians says you are wrong.
1 Thessalonians 1:1,4
Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
That is election of Gentiles speaking to you MB.
Christ chose to die for the whole world
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This must mean the whole world is elect. How does that make you feel so special.?
MB
Just because you say so does not make it so. This verese does not say Gentiles are elect
MB
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Do you have a verse after the cross where the Father is drawing people ?Part 1:
@MB,
Let's look at this again, shall we?
The Lord Jesus and God the Father cannot "draw" a person in the same way, and it not lead to Scriptural contradictions.
For example, in John 6:44, we see this:
" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
As stated, no man can come to Christ ( believe on Him, which is what John 6:37-44 develops ) unless the Father does the drawing.
In John 12:32, Jesus is stating what death He should die ( John 12:33 ), and we also know that both Jesus Christ and God the Father cannot both be doing the "drawing" that results in a person believing on Him, or that would make Christ a liar when He stated, just 6 chapters before, that it was His Father that did that drawing.
In addition, "men" is in italics and not part of the text of John 12:32.
So who are the "all" in that verse?
Of course it is your right to answer that question for yourself and be persuaded of what is correct and what is not, but I see this:
If "all men" in John 12:32 means "each and every sinner who ever lived", then according to the language of John 6:44 and your usage of John 12:32, everyone that Jesus draws...all men...will be raised up at the last day.
Reason:
All who are drawn by the Father in John 6:44 will come to Christ, and all who come to Christ will partake of the first resurrection ( be raised up at the last day, the day of His coming ).
Therefore, if all men are drawn "savingly" in John 12:32, then all men will be raised up at the last day.
That is universal salvation.
Do you not realize that?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I have a verse in the bible about a command to build an Ark but then I check and realise it's not written to me . We should check who Jesus is speaking to in John 6 and when . In another place Jesus tells us He only came for Israel .Does this change ? . A lot changes after the cross. Before the cross ( old testament) The father was drawing those who were following Him prior to the birth of Jesus and up to the cross.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
The father was not drawing people inn a Gnostic sense .The point was they could come .
Do you have a verse where The Father drew Paul to Jesus? From the bible we can see he heard the Gosepl from Stephen when he stood by whilst he was being stoned .
Later he says " I was not disobedient to the Holy vision "