Featured Calvinist/Non-Calvinist - Where exactly am I?

But if we are all sinners and in reality incapable of selecting to believe on Christ....then the reprobate really is incapable of belief....right! In other word's, God selects us to be the saved through grace and the reprobate is out of luck ...really w/o grace. Or is there something I'm missing?

 

What I am saying is "election TO salvation" presumes a previous lost and condemned condition or there is no need of salvation. When the potter makes one vessel a vessel of "mercy" the word mercy presumes that the clay is already in a fallen and justly condemned condition. Hence, the clay is already fallen and justly condemned lump of mankind. Hence, all are equally depraved, equally sinners, equally under just condemnation and therefore by principle all could be equally and justly condemned to hell and God would be glorified by his justice. HENCE NONE NEED TO BE CHOSEN TO DAMNATION BECAUSE ALL ARE ALREADY EQUALLY AND JUSTLY DAMNED as the elect "were children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS."

Election TO salvation is called election "of grace" and therefore God chose out of justly condemned mankind a specific number to be glorified in their salvation by grace. Hence, God is EQUALLY glorified by just condemnation in the non-elect and salvation by grace of the elect but the elect had no more grounds to glory, no more just grounds than the non-elect.

 

Mark, I do understand exactly what you are saying, however you do understand of course why someone who holds to Synergistic theology is boldly apposed to Calvinistic theology & I'm not going to rehash it nor plead there case for them however they do make the point that Election & Particular Atonement is tad amount to stacking the cards against the reprobate. I prefer to believe the reprobate is merely passed over & that if they really could be convinced of believing, then they would be saved..... so I hold out hope that Samuel Rutherford was correct.

When I indicated to Jon that universal atonement destroys the unity & harmony of the Trinity, I meant it. For without the implementation of definite atonement, you would be saying that the members of the Trinity don't quite know what they are doing.

The Father has chosen the Elect, but the Son has died for all & the Spirit has managed to apply the atoning work of Christ to some! Now thats schizophrenic.

 

True - but we are blessed by the fact that even in extreme areas such as Calvinism it is admitted that the "drawing of God" - the "supernatural drawing" fully enables the choice to accept the Gospel that depravity disables.

So then how are they even Calvinists given "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

Simple - they edit and downsize each text that would have informed them of their error.

in Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan

You and a few others repeat this error over and over.

The all men is not every man who ever lived. The context speaks of all men, not the jew only.....all who believe worldwide....

The King comes to Zion;
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him......

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.



You can try 1 jn 2;2 all day and call it an atoning sacrifice...however propitiation means to turn away the wrath......the wrath is not turned away from the unbelieving world in any way...that is why they will appear at the GREAT WHITE THRONE.

 

Indeed just as they downsize every text that does not accommodate the tradition of Calvinism - so they take the Bible doctrine on Atonement (in places like Lev 16 DAY of Atonement) and shrink it down to Lev 16:15 "Atoning Sacrifice"

And of course as we all know from 1John 2:2 Christ was made the "Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world".

Thus they directly contradict the unlimited atoning sacrifice of 1John 2:2 and turn it into "Limited Atoning Sacrifice".

Then their next step is to take the entire concept of Atonement in places like Lev 16 and shrink it all down to "Atoning Sacrifice"

Basically getting both scriptures wrong.

Depends on how you render the word.

In Isaiah 53:10 Christ is the sin offering - the guilt offering for our sins.

In 1John 2:2 he is the Atoning Sacrifice - using the same Greek word that is also used in Ezek 45:20 "make atonement" -- the same root word as in 1John 2:2

The language in the Bible is more "Atonement and Atoning Sacrifice and sin offering" then the more ambiguous "propitiation" which includes the Greek idea of appeasing the angry deity vs the "God so Loved the World that He GAVE." and "God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself" Bible concept poured into the doctrine on "Atonement".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, drawing is the ability to come to Christ and the "all" of John 12:32 has already been carefully defined as the very same "all" in John 6:37-39 where NONE "of all" given are lost thus "all" given" are "all" drawn. It is the same "all" defined in John 6:45a that is restricted to the new covenant elect (Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31:33-34; Ezek. 36:26-27; Heb. 8, 10; 2 Cor. 3:3-6). So no contradiction just perfect contextual consistency as John 6 PRECEDES and DEFINES John 12:32 rather than your BACKWARD approach by taking one verse and going BACKWARDS and redefing many preceding verses. Now that is the epitomy of eisgetical schizophrenia.

 

The text does not say "I will draw all who already believe today to Me" and I think both Calvinists and Arminians know that.

The text does not say "I will draw ALL who even though they do not believe - will one day believe - to Me" -- and I think both Calvinists and Arminians know that is not written there in the text.

What we can all see is that there is a "need" in Calvinism to downsize that text away from the apparent meaning of the text.

Christ states the purpose of his mission in no restricted terms.

Just as we see it in 1John 4 "God sent His Son...to be the savior of the WORLD"

and 2Cor 5 "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself"

and 1John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD".

Never is the mission of Christ described in the downsized and limited terms needed in Calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I believe there is a distinction between the SINGULAR race sin which was a corporate act by "one man" wherein the whole human nature of the whole human race acted willfully to rebell against God, and the PLURAL sins of individuals who are later individualized from that common human nature created in Eden. The atonement does not remove the temporary consequences (including physical death) even for the elect but it does remove the eternal penalty of sin (Jn. 1:29) committed by the human race in "one man." Thus atonement removed the eternal penalty for the singular sin of the human race corporately acting in one man - Adam without removing the temporay consequences - fallen nature and temporal death. Thus no INDIVIDUAL man is judged and condemned to hell based upon the corporate action of the human race in one man but rather they are judged "according to" their own works performed in their own individual body and that is why dying infants and those incapable or rational decision are not condemned to hell but are saved exactly as they were condemned.

Hence the atonement is universal for the whole world, reconciling the whole world to God through Christ as it removes the eternal penalty for corporate action without removing the temporal consequences for either the elect or non-elect, nor removing the inability and condemnation for personal sins.

 

BobRyan

no one said it did.

yes but evidently cals can see that chapter 11 came before chapter twelve...and said this-
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

no just to understand it correctly.....i do not think ellen g white got it correctly either.

I severy single person in the world saved?

Is every single person in the world reconciled to God?

God's love extends worldwide through the gospel,and yet Jesus prayed not for the world.

Calvinism describes the exact and perfect victory of the cross....not one who God has planned to be saved ,will be lost.:wavey:

 

1 John 2:2 translates "hilasmos" as propitiation. Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation. Our sin burden is removed when we are placed in Christ, the circumcision of Christ. Anyone, from the whole world, that is spiritually placed in Christ is propitiated, saved, made blameless, holy and righteous.

In Isaiah 53:10 Christ is said to be our "guilt offering." (The Hebrew, not Greek word, is asham, meaning in this case the compensation needed for our trespass or sin) and God accepted this compensation, this perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. But this sacrifice only provided the means of salvation for the whole world, in order to receive the reconciliation we must be put in Christ and undergo the circumcision of Christ. Christ became the washing machine, but the Father must put us into the washing machine in order to be washed.

In Ezekiel 45:20 the Hebrew word "Kaphar" is translated as reconcile. The picture provided here is that the sprinkling of animal blood cleanses those of the household, just as when God puts an individual spiritually in Christ, the person is cleansed with the blood of the Lamb.

 

1. The same greek word is used in Ezek 45:20 as "Atonement" see the LXX

2. The NIV rightly translates this in the Bible term - Atoning Sacrifice.

3. Is 53:10 states that Christ is the sin offering --

4. In the Bible model 'God so loved that HE gave" and "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5. By contrast the greek pagan model was of offering up a sacrifice to appease the angry deity.

Some will appreciate the difference - don't you think?

in Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan

I do not think this changes anything at all. The wrath has not been turned away-

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

There is no propitiation for the goats.There is no peace to the wicked.
the bible salvation describes an actual propitiation...an actual reconciliation.

You are describing something the bible does not teach.

Christ is offered for many, not all.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

if you are going to ignore the obvious teaching you will never come to truth.

 

There is the sin offering of Is 53:10 "For us to whom the stroke was due" -- the lost, the goats, lost mankind. Fallen man is lost -- not saved.

And the pagan concept of "appeasing the angry deity" is not at all the Bible model of "God so LOVED the World that HE gave"

Nor is iit "God was IN Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself".

The wrath of God is revealed against those who reject the Gospel and "loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil". It is in the context of the Gospel and rejection of it that the wicked have to fear "The wrath to come".

This Atonement doctrine of the Bible - is very different from pagan propitiation of the angry deity.

The many of Matt 7 are lost

The "WHOLE WORLD" of 1 John 2:2 have the atoning sacrifice made for them not merely the "few" of Matt 7.

And so also the ALL of John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Calvinists admit that the drawing of John 6 and John 12 DOES enable the choice to accept the Gospel that depravity disables.

But they choke on the word "All" in John 12:32 "I will draw ALL unto Me" because it destroys their limited atoning sacrifice concept.

So they "need to define" ALL in such a way that Calvinism can survive the text. It does not.

As noted before all triangles are rectangles -- but not all rectangles are triangles -- "ALL" in John 6 that are Drawn AND that choose to HEAR and that learn from God - will come - but that is a compound condition.

At no point does the text say "all drawn are given" nor "All drawn will come to Christ" - we already noted that "Bible detail" in the previous posts.

I don't think many who read that post have forgotten this detail so soon.

in Christ,

Bob