Calvinist preachers, teachers, theologians

Jarthur001 · Oct 21, 2006

Allan said:

Ok then:
Let's take what you have a look at it. Rom 8:28 - ...them that love God...the Called..
I understand this to be believers just as you do but were we differ is not so much the interpretation of its metaphorical usage as it is the postulation of differing "calls".
Let me show you what I mean.
First let us look at the Greek wording here: [???? ???????] translates - the invited; and it is observed that it is a "metaphor" taken from inviting guests, or making them welcome to a feast. Called is not an improper translation but it means the same thing regarding the metaphorical usage. So how does this help establish my point.

Well lets begin this way: you believe God only saves those He "Calls". Your answer is yes and no. (correct me here if Im wrong) Yes as to effectual and no as to the general. Please show me where there are two types of callings. Most specifically where God gives to other men another that is a feeble call. I use this word since it is the opposite of effectual and shows a complete ineptness in its usage - In other words God does something (general Call) without any purpose to it since He is not expecting any results. :BangHead:

Now scripture tells here also:
.
Note if you will "BE" called, so in other words "have been". You may say Allan you just answered you own question. Wait brother, just wait... Also in relation to the parable it is speaking of those whom God called to be laborers for Him. And when the Owner of the Vineyard asked why these mem were standing around they stated, because no one has "hired - invited/called" us. But the question now is did ALL go, we see no they did not. Yet it was the same Call from the Master or God. Again this same phrase is used elsewhere, so before we get to set on what it means just yet, let us look at Mat 22 also.

Look at the Wedding Feast:

Where were those the Father (God) called and declared to be His guests. They went their own ways and did not come. They rejected it.
God told the sevents to go find anyone they could and invite them TILL His house was filled. This parable ends the same way the other does concerning the Call being an invitation TO come.

Now what about as you stated "THE CALLED". It is a good question and glad you asked. I will use this illistration to make the point.

If you are invited to be the guest at the Bash of the Millennia (Christian of course :laugh: ) as well as the 499 other Guests. The place is packed but you notice the ticket meter does not read near the designated 500 mark. But once the Bash begins the doors are locked and security takes their posts. Now the annoucer comes to the platform and says I would like to thank "THE Guests" tonight for coming. Now 500 people were offered to come but only those who acted upon the invitiation were Identified as THE GUESTS (The Called) but the others once those doors were closed, even though they have an invitation are rejected admittance because they did not act in accordance with the request made. For this story it is be here at a certain time, for God it is believe what I have said.

Didn't Jesus CALL the 12 and one was not of them.

The Called is simply an identifier of what HAS already happened with respect to the Gods calling (let us not add to scripture what is not there concerning effectual calling). However, no one can be there unless invited, right?

And so on...

Let us however go back to Rom 8 for a sec and finish it. I'm sure you will note 28 &29 speak of us having confidence in the future due to a past action.

Work together for good to them who are The Called. A key here is this piece; "...according to His purpose". How so and what is that good? He DID foreknew, THEN He did predestinate THAT they (the Called) for the purpose of being conformed to the image of Jesus being the first born of many. We need to note that foreknow and predestinate as seperate actions being described here and foreknow, preceedes predestine. And why is this important, because it shows what predestination concerns - that it is not the action of election but the action of justification, sanctification, and glorification that we may be the image of Gods Son (this was/is His purpose FOR Calling not the call itself) as we see in the next verses. Remember that foreknew is before predestination and predestination is about conforming The Called - those who acted upon the invitiation. Now we see just how the conforming works within man according to Gods good pleasure.
[
Now we see predestined looking from the action to the person with whom the action is relating and see that this person IS predestined but predestined not according to election, no but according to verse 29 "those whom He FOREKNEW..." Now my view here differs from some so listen closely here: (Foreknew is not FORESEE as all things with God before time was, was actually IN God as time present) God foreknew who would believe DUE to His knowing there would be a Fall, and a need for a Sacrificial Lamb slain AND that man if left to himself will not seek after God but the God Himself would have to be the initiator and propagator of Salvation. So God Knows who is to accept the OFFER of the Grace of salvition, due to His desire that none should perish and the very reason Jesus is the light that lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the WORLD. In others words God knows it is He who must call man to repent, and in this knowing He knows (Not foresees) who will beleive the offered Grace He extends that

Clear as Mud??
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The 1st idea should always be....never rewrite the text.

I do not have much time today to reply to this. But I wanted to slip in a short post this morning. I look forward to looking at this with you. Most of this is old stuff that is used, but there is one new...new to me look at the text. I'll call it the Ed argument. I have never seen the Ed argument before on this text and this is where I will spend most of my reply. That is if others do not reply before me.

<<<--

Allan · Oct 21, 2006

I wondered where you disapeared to James.

I knew you were lurking somewhere just waiting for me to finish typing. :laugh: :laugh:

jne1611 · Oct 21, 2006

Allan said:

Ok then:
Let's take what you have a look at it. Rom 8:28 - ...them that love God...the Called..
I understand this to be believers just as you do but were we differ is not so much the interpretation of its metaphorical usage as it is the postulation of differing "calls".
Let me show you what I mean.
First let us look at the Greek wording here: [τοις κλητοις] translates - the invited; and it is observed that it is a "metaphor" taken from inviting guests, or making them welcome to a feast. Called is not an improper translation but it means the same thing regarding the metaphorical usage. So how does this help establish my point.

Well lets begin this way: you believe God only saves those He "Calls". Your answer is yes and no. (correct me here if Im wrong) Yes as to effectual and no as to the general. Please show me where there are two types of callings. Most specifically where God gives to other men another that is a feeble call. I use this word since it is the opposite of effectual and shows a complete ineptness in its usage - In other words God does something (general Call) without any purpose to it since He is not expecting any results. :BangHead:
quote]

I understand why you believe as you do more & more. I do not know all the implications behind the feeble call as you call it. But I do believe the people are addressed by God generally ONLY because the elect are among them. The fact of who accepts & who rejects is a matter of who is elect & who is not. Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

It is plain as day that the "Calling" - "invitation" is accepted only by the "elect" - "sheep" & rejected by the "non -elect" - "goats".
And as far as the particularity of the call itself & its nature & character. It is only given to the elect.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling [invitation], brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen [To choose, select, choose for oneself] the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Allan the invitation "calling" in context is only to the "chosen" - "elect". And lest one should think this has nothing to do with salvation. Back up a couple of verses.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

We are nearing the 30 page mark. Lets continue somewhere else.
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Allan · Oct 21, 2006

I started a new thread for the discussion. I was original - The Call :laugh: :tongue3: :laugh: maybe we can get others to join in. I didn't see any other thread like this on here. There probably is but not in while. :sleep:

Blammo · Oct 21, 2006

Jarthur001 said:

Yes it is true. Therefore I rest my case.
Click to expand...

Maybe I don't understand "your case".

E. Eternity.
Just as God is not limited in His existence by space; likewise, He is not limited in His existence by time. So God is omnitemporal, we might say, as well as omnipresent. He exists in all of time as well as all of space. In both cases, in regard to space and time, I think it is important for us to say that before God created the heavens and the earth there was no space or time. He brought both into existence. When He created the heavens and the earth He created the realm in which He would then live with us. He chose to abide with His people in the realm He had created. He enters our space and time, but God in Himself, apart from creation, is neither spatial nor temporal. I think theologians through history have been correct to talk about God as timeless in His own nature. Obviously, we cannot comprehend what this means because we can't think of how existence can take place apart from time. It is just impossible for us to imagine this, but we believe that God created space and time and yet God predates, as it were, both space and time. God in Himself is timeless and spaceless, but God in relation to creation is both everywhere present, omnipresent, and every time present, omnitemporal, with all of us.

Jarthur001 · Oct 21, 2006

Blammo said:

Maybe I don't understand "your case".

E. Eternity.
Just as God is not limited in His existence by space; likewise, He is not limited in His existence by time. So God is omnitemporal, we might say, as well as omnipresent. He exists in all of time as well as all of space. In both cases, in regard to space and time, I think it is important for us to say that before God created the heavens and the earth there was no space or time. He brought both into existence. When He created the heavens and the earth He created the realm in which He would then live with us. He chose to abide with His people in the realm He had created. He enters our space and time, but God in Himself, apart from creation, is neither spatial nor temporal. I think theologians through history have been correct to talk about God as timeless in His own nature. Obviously, we cannot comprehend what this means because we can't think of how existence can take place apart from time. It is just impossible for us to imagine this, but we believe that God created space and time and yet God predates, as it were, both space and time. God in Himself is timeless and spaceless, but God in relation to creation is both everywhere present, omnipresent, and every time present, omnitemporal, with all of us.
Click to expand...

The case is clear...

You asked if I understood the meaning "God is outside of time". (found at the link below)

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=881598&postcount=267

I said...yes I do understand and this that view is "solo atemporalist". (found at the link below)

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=881606&postcount=269

I then go on to post this...

{snip}...........Therefore, I say God is forever. "Forever" even carries a idea of time. God uses words in the Bible that shows He knows what time is, other wise He would not use those words.

If the Bible says "before", this means it has happened. If the Bible says it was before the world, this means the event happened before the world. This was not just for our understanding, but it was placed there for it is the truth. If the Bible says, "Christ will return", this will happen in time. In the "day of the Lord", is a day that will come in His time. When the Bible says, 3 days and 3 nights...it mean 3 days and 3 nights. "weeks" have a few meanings in the Bible, but each meaning has a SET TIME...and it was real.
Click to expand...

You reply with this..

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Is this true? (I would think so)
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The verse you quote uses words that are only found in time. Day is a time measurement. Year is a time measurement.

Therefore...with your proof verse you made my case...and therefore "I rest my case"

***************

Now to address this new post...

notice the last line in your post...

God in Himself is timeless and spaceless, but God in relation to creation is both everywhere present, omnipresent, and every time present, omnitemporal, with all of us.
Click to expand...

I agree. This is what I have said. God is not solo atemporal, but is both temporal and atemporal. When God works with CREATION He works in time.

It seems that you may now agree with me.

In Christ...James

Blammo · Oct 21, 2006

I understand what you are saying now, James, but it seemed like you were saying that God is subject to time as we are.

Webdog was not saying God cannot work in time or understand what time is. :laugh: That is why I didn't understand "your case".

Jarthur001 · Oct 21, 2006

Blammo said:

I understand what you are saying now, James, but it seemed like you were saying that God is subject to time as we are.

Webdog was not saying God cannot work in time or understand what time is. :laugh: That is why I didn't understand "your case".
Click to expand...

In fact I am say God is subject to time, when God works with His creation, for His creation is TIME. When God choose man...God is working with his creation. But God is also beyond time, for before time God was. Before creation God was.

Therefore He is BOTH. So when the Bible says..."Before the world was made"..This is God telling us when it happened. Foreknown means it has happend.

Where as webdog will say over and over again that when the Bible uses words like "before" or Foreknew", that because it is God it does not apply to Him which does not make a lick of sense being that God does His work to man in creation which is TIME and therefore God uses words that till when it happened in time.

agree?

added later........

BECAUSE as you posted... but God in relation to creation is both everywhere present, omnipresent, and every time present, omnitemporal, with all of us.
Which is a statement of God IN time.

Brother Bob · Oct 21, 2006

3. The decree to provide a salvation in Christ sufficient for all;
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Glad to see you agree on this one.

Brother Bob · Oct 21, 2006

You can't get much smaller Bob, than putting God on mans leash. And who said He can't make man able to choose?
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Calvinist theology says He didn't make them able to choose.

Brother Bob · Oct 21, 2006

Hello Brother,

Would you not agree with me, that being that some would claim God would never choose one man over another, for this is not part of Gods nature, being as they claim, that God loves all men the same way....Would you not agree with me that if one believes this is the "all in all" of what God is about, that being God loves every man in the same way, that one would only need to show that choosing one over another is very much part of Gods nature?

Would you not agree that this can be shown not once nor just a few times, but over and over again thoughout the Bible? Would you not say that it is in fact very much part of Gods nature, for this is how we read of Him in His Holy Word?

Jauthor:
Again, I did not say I did not agree with them, I said there are some decrees we hold to that are alluded to in scripture but never out right stated.

Take the decree to allow man to fall or the decree of mans fall.
We know it is true but there is not a scripture that states God decreed He would allow man TO fall or that states God decreed or established that man WILL HAVE TO fall.
Click to expand...

So, you make it up as you go.

Thanks for your input.

In Christ...James
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This is exactly opposite of what you do proclaim.

I love it....

Coming soon in a book called..."Yes, he really said that"

Click to expand...

Don't you understand James that God was before time and man?

{snip}...........Therefore, I say God is forever. "Forever" even carries a idea of time. God uses words in the Bible that shows He knows what time is, other wise He would not use those words.

If the Bible says "before", this means it has happened. If the Bible says it was before the world, this means the event happened before the world. This was not just for our understanding, but it was placed there for it is the truth. If the Bible says, "Christ will return", this will happen in time. In the "day of the Lord", is a day that will come in His time. When the Bible says, 3 days and 3 nights...it mean 3 days and 3 nights. "weeks" have a few meanings in the Bible, but each meaning has a SET TIME...and it was real.
Click to expand...

What about "has no beginning and has no end" does that have a time idea about it?
What about "a thousand years is as yesterday"?

Brother Bob · Oct 21, 2006

Basic questions for me from me:
Do I agree there are decrees - Yes
Do I beleive theology should use them - Yes
Do I think how you see them played out will determine our theology - we wouldn't be having this discussion otherwise. I beleive in each of decree the Calvinist does, I just think their postulation on some parts are inaccurate just as they do mine. But we are still brothers in Christ - Only I'm called by my brothers Uncle F. Ree Willie :laugh: But ** cough** That is not my real name.
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I agree too Allan;

Brother Bob · Oct 21, 2006

BTW, I am BAAAACK!!!

Blammo · Oct 21, 2006

Welcome back, Brother Bob. Good to see ya!!!

Brother Bob · Oct 21, 2006

Thank you Blammo, they haven't swung you over while I been gone have they?

They have tried the Greek
They have tried the Hebrew
Now they trying the Decrees but still haven't seen the Decree that "God so loved the World" They must of forgot all about that one. lol

Jarthur001 · Oct 21, 2006

Hello Bob....

This is exactly opposite of what you do proclaim.
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i have no idea what you are talking about on this.

Don't you understand James that God was before time and man?
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yes...I also said this very thing.

What about "has no beginning and has no end" does that have a time idea about it?
Click to expand...

and then when we read this verse with your statement..
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

We see clear that God is IN FACT both in time when He works in creation....but can move beyond time. And MAN is creation. What is so hard to see about this?

What about "a thousand years is as yesterday"?
What do you think Bob? Any time words in this statement?

Jarthur001 · Oct 21, 2006

Brother Bob said:

BTW, I am BAAAACK!!!
Click to expand...

welcome back bob

Jarthur001 · Oct 21, 2006

Brother Bob said:

Thank you Blammo, they haven't swung you over while I been gone have they?

They have tried the Greek
They have tried the Hebrew
Now they trying the Decrees but still haven't seen the Decree that "God so loved the World" They must of forgot all about that one. lol
Click to expand...

PLEASE!!! Blammo is freewill though and though. I do not ever see him take a stand for election BY God. I do not see where you have one bit to fear Bob.

BTW...yes..it has been shown in the Greek theat God elects to his own pleasure..
in the Hebrew...
in English
and we have address the decrees...
and....God so loved the world....too

But you only believe one of these things...and skip over the others. Maybe its time to trust the whole Bible.

Brother Bob · Oct 21, 2006

BTW...yes..it has been shown in the Greek theat God elects to his own pleasure..
in the Hebrew...
in English
and we have address the decrees...
and....God so loved the world....too

But you only believe one of these things...and skip over the others. Maybe its time to trust the whole Bible.
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Yea James; good to talk to you again. I don't skip the realy important ones to the rest of us, like all, whosoever, all ye end of the earth, whole world, appeared unto all, just to name a few my friend

Jarthur001 · Oct 21, 2006

Brother Bob said:

Yea James; good to talk to you again. I don't skip the realy important ones to the rest of us, like all, whosoever, all ye end of the earth, whole world, appeared unto all, just to name a few my friend
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Which ones are NOT imortant in your eyes? Maybe the ones you skip? Maybe election?

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