Calvinist preachers, teachers, theologians

[jne1611]

One time I sat through an entire sermon and I only remembered one line. Somewhere near the end of the sermon the pastor said, "that's why we are calvinist". That is the only thing I remember from the message.

Do you guys think I was predestined to not know I am a calvinist?

Quite the joker aren't you.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[whatever]

I agree with you on the fact that reprobation is spoken of as happening in time. But there is no way to separate what God has done in time from what He decreed in eternity. I am not against you, just making my stand on the issue.

I think I didn't say what I said very well. I do believe that God made His decision in eternity past. I believe that He decreed that all would fall as a result of one man's sin, and then He decreed that He would save some of those in Christ and leave the others in their sin. There's a fancy word for that but I do not remember what it is.

Others believe that God decreed that He would save some and not others before He decreed the fall. I do not believe that the Bible allows for this.

In either case, all of this happened before time.

 

[Blammo]

Quite the joker aren't you.:smilewinkgrin:

It's actually a true story. Even at the very moment he said, "that's why we are calvinist", I had no recollection of anything he said up to that point. And, after he said that, I was distracted from the rest of the message.

 

[Brother Bob]

There is no doubt that the election and rejection are eternal. But the rejection is based on man's sinfulness. It cannot be separated from that

If this were true we would all go to Hell including the Calvinist.

 

[jne1611]

I think I didn't say what I said very well. I do believe that God made His decision in eternity past. I believe that He decreed that all would fall as a result of one man's sin, and then He decreed that He would save some of those in Christ and leave the others in their sin. There's a fancy word for that but I do not remember what it is.

Others believe that God decreed that He would save some and not others before He decreed the fall. I do not believe that the Bible allows for this.

In either case, all of this happened before time.

Agreed.:thumbsup:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Some folks would say that Jude 4 seems to be saying that those who are reprobate were "long ago marked out for that condemnation."
Jude 4. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[jne1611]

Some folks would say that Jude 4 seems to be saying that those who are reprobate were "long ago marked out for that condemnation."
Jude 4. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Looks to me like that's what the Bible says. Glad to see you on board Bro. I am going to bed.:sleep:

 

[J.D.]

The "elect" are chosen in eternity, and the wicked are never referred to as "elect"; but that does not negate the fact God that determined the end from the beginning and this includes His choice to pass over some to reprobation. The only real difference is that He actively chooses the elect to salvation, while he passively chooses the damnation of the reprobate.

As long as we're not teaching active reprobation I think we're on sound biblical grounds.

Of course, the common misrepresentation of calvinism is that it teaches active reprobation, which it does not. (granted there are some that may be called hypercalvinists that do teach this).

 

[Allan]

How is that:

God decreed man would and will fall BEFORE man ever did fall.
Calvinistic theology states God did not look into future time to see who would or would not choose Him.
Ergo, Before man had done any wrong/sin God decreed His fall, sin and seperation from Himself.
Then God decreed after this to save only a portion of those He decreed to fall.

The problem I see is in the fact God did not look into future time to see anything, and yet decrees what He happens from the fall to the elect!

If I'm wrong correct me on this, please.

 

[Allan]

I see no passivity in fall unless God DID see future time and what would be and that being man would fall, THEN God would determind who are to be saved --

But now you have the problem of (at least under Calvinistic teachings) God not being completly soveriegn, as in choosing man to fall, since He is in absolute control at all times. Man chose for himself who he would submit to.

So to me, it seems logical that God would have to decree man to fall, sin, and be seperated in order to maintain consistantly the Calvinistic view of Gods Soveriegnty.

If mans has no option but to do as God decrees, and ALL THING are decreed by God. Now God becomes and is the first cause of sin and no matter how you want to slice it - He is the one responcible for mans fall, sin, seperation, and then will judge mankind for what He decreed or made them do.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am just saying that God's decision to leave them in their sins was not a choice made in time

I agree with that absolutely.

There is no doubt that the election and rejection are eternal. But the rejection is based on man's sinfulness. It cannot be separated from that

If this were true we would all go to Hell including the Calvinist.

How so? Some Calvinists might indeed go to hell, but none of hte elect will. The sins of believers are forgiven in Christ. Therefore, the grounds for eternal rejection are removed.

 

[Pastor Larry]

God decreed man would and will fall BEFORE man ever did fall.
Calvinistic theology states God did not look into future time to see who would or would not choose Him.
Ergo, Before man had done any wrong/sin God decreed His fall, sin and seperation from Himself.
Then God decreed after this to save only a portion of those He decreed to fall.

The problem I see is in the fact God did not look into future time to see anything, and yet decrees what He happens from the fall to the elect!

Why is this a problem?

So to me, it seems logical ...

Let it be shown yet again that Calvinism is rejected on the basis of logic, not on the basis of Scripture in this case. I thiink this is a primary matter. What will be our guide? Will Scripture guide us? Or will logic?

Ultimately, I think we err in trying to fit God into our box. God is bigger than that, and we must go with what he says.

Yes, God decreed all things before there was ever yet one of them. How do we deny that? Even in God "looked into time" to do so, it is still fixed, and God decreed that people have no chance to change what he knows they will do. So "looking into time" does not solve the problem. You still have it. You have a God who decrees for people to be born, knowing that they will have no chance to repent and believe.

Psalm 139 says that God knows all the days that were ordained for us before there was even one of them. Who ordained them? God did.

So in the end, I think we take the statements of Scripture and arrange our logic and thinking around them, rather than the other way around.

 

[Allan]

Actually my friend, you are the ONLY Calvinist I have MET (this includes those of and at the founders blog and Strange Baptist Fire - a group associated with the Founders and Calvinist Gadfly) that do not take what the scriptures states and by logic conclude and extrapolate the next obvious beleif within the Calvinistic Pardiagm. All of the Calvinists I know and have spoken with use logic as the basis for ALL that they believe!!

So are you saying that the Calvinistic system of theology is NOT actually logical??


God gives us the scriptures however and via those scriptures we CAN logically come to what states. Without such we would have no systematic theology much less Theology in general.

 

[whatever]

Allan,

First, I doubt that any Calvinist uses logic as the basis for all that he believes. I think you overstated the case.

Second, of course Pastor Larry is not saying that Calvinism is not logical. Please reread his last sentence. What he is saying is that you cannot come up with some logical deduction that negates what the Bible says. To do so your logic must be flawed. Here is one example:

Calvinistic theology states God did not look into future time to see who would or would not choose Him.
. . .
The problem I see is in the fact God did not look into future time to see anything, and yet decrees what He happens from the fall to the elect!

Do you see the problem? You jumped from "God does not elect on the basis of foreseen faith" all the way to "God does not foresee anything". You are confusing the issue of whether God has foreknowledge of events with the question of on what basis He determines what will happen. God does foreknow everything that will happen because He has decreed that it will happen. God did not decree that things would happen because He already knew that they were going to happen. That just doesn't even make sense - "Allan is going to believe, therefore I decree that Allan will believe". That's the way my children decree things. When their Mom and I say that things will be done a certain way then they (usually) choose to make things happen exactly that way. There's not much sovereignty in that.

 

[Brother Bob]

How so? Some Calvinists might indeed go to hell, but none of hte elect will. The sins of believers are forgiven in Christ. Therefore, the grounds for eternal rejection are removed.
(But the rejection is based on man's sinfulness)

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God and if it based on man's sinfulness then that would get all of us.

 

[Pastor Larry]

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God and if it based on man's sinfulness then that would get all of us.

But Christ died to pay the penalty of sin. Therefore, for those whom Christ died for, their sinfulness is as if it does not exist to God. He has accepted the death of Christ on our behalf. For those for whom it is not paid for, they have to pay for it themselves.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Actually my friend, you are the ONLY Calvinist I have MET (this includes those of and at the founders blog and Strange Baptist Fire - a group associated with the Founders and Calvinist Gadfly) that do not take what the scriptures states and by logic conclude and extrapolate the next obvious beleif within the Calvinistic Pardiagm. All of the Calvinists I know and have spoken with use logic as the basis for ALL that they believe!!

Perhaps you should get out more. While logic is always involved, Calvinists take Scripture and make logical deductions from that Scripture. They do not contradict Scripture with logic. Scripture always stands.

So are you saying that the Calvinistic system of theology is NOT actually logical??

No, not at all. I am saying, as was pointed out, that it does not begin or end with logic. It begins and ends with the revelation of God.

God gives us the scriptures however and via those scriptures we CAN logically come to what states. Without such we would have no systematic theology much less Theology in general.

Exactly. And this is what Calvinism believes about Scripture and theology.

 

[Brother Bob]

But Christ died to pay the penalty of sin, sinfulness is as if it does not exist to God. He has accepted the death of Christ on our behalf

I agree with this part


Hebrews, chapter 2
"9": But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Timothy, chapter 2
"1": I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

"2": For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

"3": For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

"4": Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"5": For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

"6": Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

2 Peter, chapter 2
1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, ( here are some that were bought with the Lord’s blood but were false prophets) and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4:

 

[Allan]

First, I doubt that any Calvinist uses logic as the basis for all that he believes. I think you overstated the case.

Actually, if what you began learning wasn't logical - would you have continued in it? I seriously doubt it, and nor would anyone else. Proper deduction and reasoning within logic allows for us to grasp and have cohesive understanding.

You are confusing the issue of whether God has foreknowledge of events with the question of on what basis He determines what will happen. God does foreknow everything that will happen because He has decreed that it will happen. God did not decree that things would happen because He already knew that they were going to happen. That just doesn't even make sense

Actually, it does make ALOT of sense, just not to someone who will not see.
But let me show you something first, if I may:

You state:
God does foreknow everything that will happen because He has decreed that it will happen

Now within this construct we have a multitute of problems.
1. Man does not choose sin or fall and thereby bring condemation upon himself. Why? Because God decreed from the outset who will be condemed and by His decree they will fall into sin and not ever know Him. Ergo, He punishes those He fully intended to never know Him and thereby reject Him.

1 (a). IF God decrees and THEREFORE due to this already knows the outcome - you have succefully established double predestination which is a blatant heresy. As He does not FORSEE mans decision to reject Him, we have God making the decision for him and man just did as he was created to do - be condemed to hell before any are chosen. Then He only chooses SOME to show love to out of this group by which He created for the purpose destruction.

2. If God decrees man will fall, it IS NOT man that has chosen rebellion but that which was decreed he does (this includes Adams fall). Now we have mankind simply followin along (sorry, but robot analogy included here) doing what God decreed he WILL do (specifically Adam) and had no choice but to do what God created him to do. Now we have God being the author of sin. Why? Because God is the first cause of all things including sin.

2 (b). Now we just just impuned Gods righteousness, tainted His Holiness, and absolved God's love. For if God so decreed first - By the very nature of the statement He would then be the very author of sin and a partisipator of it. We, due to this same statement have God decreeing mankind to fall into sin and then giving this same creation who is doing what they were decreed to do - everlasting torment for being who He made them to be. [Unrigheous] Thereby tainting His Holiness for He would not be seperated from ungodliness being the very creator of it [Unholy] And since SOME where choosen for Heaven and many more for eternal torment by there very creator -

I have YET to hear a defencable view within Calvinism that does not make God the very author of sin. God will not tempt man TO sin nor does God cause man to sin.


Now what is most funny is I beleive the Calvinist has and hold the same truths I do, but our views as to the mechanics of their operation differ. We have differing VIEWS about the same immutable truths. This is just an area I don't agree with since it is mostly speculation anyway!

 

[webdog]

I think I didn't say what I said very well. I do believe that God made His decision in eternity past. I believe that He decreed that all would fall as a result of one man's sin, and then He decreed that He would save some of those in Christ and leave the others in their sin. There's a fancy word for that but I do not remember what it is.

Others believe that God decreed that He would save some and not others before He decreed the fall. I do not believe that the Bible allows for this.

In either case, all of this happened before time.

You have just admitted to double predestination...what Pastor Larry so vehemently denies calvinism teaches. Chalk up another person who "doesn't know calvinism". Oh, wait...you're a calvinist....