Calvinist response to FotF commercial of John 3:16

[Greektim]

If you didn't see it, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIdq_SipL-A&feature=share

Will there be any statements on the commercial's use of "world" as including "everyone" and "anyone"???

Thoughts?

I'm not a fan and see it as misleading. I find that John's use of "world" refers to every nation, tribe, tongue, etc. It is not his reference for all people but all peoples (see the distinction?). This is very missional and consistent with the OT teaching of God blessing the nations (cf. Paul on that in Gal. 3:8). Also, the emphasis on "whoever" over the real emphasis in the Greek which is "believes" was also subtle but misleading.

 

[Amy.G]

What's misleading? That's exactly what Jesus said.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[padredurand]

If you didn't see it, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIdq_SipL-A&feature=share

Will there be any statements on the commercial's use of "world" as including "everyone" and "anyone"???

Thoughts?

I'm not a fan and see it as misleading. I find that John's use of "world" refers to every nation, tribe, tongue, etc. It is not his reference for all people but all peoples (see the distinction?). This is very missional and consistent with the OT teaching of God blessing the nations (cf. Paul on that in Gal. 3:8). Also, the emphasis on "whoever" over the real emphasis in the Greek which is "believes" was also subtle but misleading.

God will redeem all of His elect. He may even use a FotF commercial to facilitate it. For someone not of the elect this commercial was 30 seconds of filler on their television. How could anyone have a problem with that?

 

[jbh28]

I have no problem with it. I see nothing to limit the use of "world" in verse 16 to mean anything other than all of mankind. Saying "whosoever" believes is accurate. There will be no one that believes that will not be saved. I of course believe in election and recognize that only the elect will believe. I don't see any issue here.

 

[freeatlast]

Everyone who believes is no doubt elect, but not all who are called will believe.

 

[MB]

Another redefinning of a word. I happen to like scriptures own definning. This supports the true original meaning.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
MB

 

[Grasshopper]

Another redefinning of a word. I happen to like scriptures own definning. This supports the true original meaning.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
MB

What does propitiation mean?

 

[MB]

What does propitiation mean?

It means that Christ took our sins on Him Self and disposed of them. In other words He is the disposer of our sins.
MB

 

[Greektim]

What's misleading? That's exactly what Jesus said.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

No... Jesus didn't say exactly that... because they expounding on the word "world" which may or not mean every single human being. And the emphasis in the Greek is not "whosoever" but "the one who believes." So faith is the issue not all the people of the world.

 

[Greektim]

It means that Christ took our sins on Him Self and disposed of them. In other words He is the disposer of our sins.
MB

And he disposed of all the world's sins???

 

[Grasshopper]

It means that Christ took our sins on Him Self and disposed of them. In other words He is the disposer of our sins.
MB

Then He has disposed of the sins of the whole world?

 

[MB]

Yes that is what it means. This means because He has done such we can accept His gift of Salvation by faith

 

[MB]

No... Jesus didn't say exactly that... because they expounding on the word "world" which may or not mean every single human being. And the emphasis in the Greek is not "whosoever" but "the one who believes." So faith is the issue not all the people of the world.

You're forgetting that Be cause of His propitation the whole world now has the potentual for Salvation. Everyone can be saved not just the particularity elect. Besides there is not one bit of proof that any gentile is particularity elect. That is yet another doctrine of grace error.
MB

 

[Greektim]

You're forgetting that Be cause of His propitation the whole world now has the potentual for Salvation. Everyone can be saved not just the particularity elect. Besides there is not one bit of proof that any gentile is particularity elect. That is yet another doctrine of grace error.
MB

I was referring to a different poster and John 3:16. The poster was saying essentially, "I have no problem w/ the commercial b/c that is what Jesus said." But they added in their own commentary on a few words and emphases that some of us interpret differently.

 

[Greektim]

You're forgetting that Be cause of His propitation the whole world now has the potentual for Salvation. Everyone can be saved not just the particularity elect. Besides there is not one bit of proof that any gentile is particularity elect. That is yet another doctrine of grace error.
MB

I'm not "forgetting" anything. I don't view salvation and grace as a potential act that requires my choice to accept. I view salvation and grace as a divine, effectual act that requires none of me and all of God.

And still... the concept of propitiation of the whole world is a meaningless statement in Scripture if it says that Jesus disposed of every single person's sin and yet people still go to hell for sin (even though they were disposed of). The destination that your logic will take you is to universalism. After all, why would anyone go to hell if their sins are disposed of. That is unless you change your statement on potentiality and say the propitiation is potential (not what the verse says).

 

[Grasshopper]

Yes that is what it means. This means because He has done such we can accept His gift of Salvation by faith

If Christ has disposed of all the sins of all the world, then what sins are
left for the lost man to pay for for all eternity?

 

[MB]

I'm not "forgetting" anything. I don't view salvation and grace as a potential act that requires my choice to accept. I view salvation and grace as a divine, effectual act that requires none of me and all of God.

And still... the concept of propitiation of the whole world is a meaningless statement in Scripture if it says that Jesus disposed of every single person's sin and yet people still go to hell for sin (even though they were disposed of). The destination that your logic will take you is to universalism. After all, why would anyone go to hell if their sins are disposed of. That is unless you change your statement on potentiality and say the propitiation is potential (not what the verse says).

Meaningless to some no doubt yet unless we want to deny the truth of scripture we must accept it as truth other wise there is no reason to believe any of it. If scripture is in error any where with in it's self then we have no way of knowing if any of it is true.

You can accept that you have been chosen for Salvation in advance of Salvation actually happening. Yet you can't accept that sin has been forgiven you in advance of your acceptance of the gift of Salvation. I know you do not believe you can accept Salvation. Yet you believe you can be saved with out you even being aware of it until you read the scriptures.
This is just plain silly
If Christ didn't die for your sins 2000 years ago or do you supposed He did it just recently? If you do believe Christ died for your sins 2000 years ago why not admit that He did that in advance. That is unless you were born sinnless because you were saved when He paid for those sins.

I think you know better than your straw man response about everyone one being saved. You're just stalling because you simply don't know what to say. I know you've been here long enough to know that I do not believe everyone will be saved. I might wish that were true however it isn't. Salvation must be accepted by faith. No faith , No grace. No Grace, No Salvation, and you are right Salvation is all of God.
MB

 

[MB]

If Christ has disposed of all the sins of all the world, then what sins are
left for the lost man to pay for for all eternity?

The unforgivable sin. The rejection of Christ. I can only imagine that this sin must be much worse than all other sins. It is ultimately what we burn the longest for.
MB

 

[Greektim]

Meaningless to some no doubt yet unless we want to deny the truth of scripture we must accept it as truth other wise there is no reason to believe any of it. If scripture is in error any where with in it's self then we have no way of knowing if any of it is true.

You can accept that you have been chosen for Salvation in advance of Salvation actually happening. Yet you can't accept that sin has been forgiven you in advance of your acceptance of the gift of Salvation. I know you do not believe you can accept Salvation. Yet you believe you can be saved with out you even being aware of it until you read the scriptures.
This is just plain silly
If Christ didn't die for your sins 2000 years ago or do you supposed He did it just recently? If you do believe Christ died for your sins 2000 years ago why not admit that He did that in advance. That is unless you were born sinnless because you were saved when He paid for those sins.

I think you know better than your straw man response about everyone one being saved. You're just stalling because you simply don't know what to say. I know you've been here long enough to know that I do not believe everyone will be saved. I might wish that were true however it isn't. Salvation must be accepted by faith. No faith , No grace. No Grace, No Salvation, and you are right Salvation is all of God.
MB

Actually I don't know you at all. And I think you totally missed the point of what I was saying. Definitely not a stall tactic. But such an accusation reveals more about your character.

Your logic is as follows... your view of Scripture teaches that "world" in John 3:16 means the "whole world" from 1 Jn 2:2. When asked what "propitiation" meant, you said it was the concept of the disposal of sin. Thus the logical inference is that (a) Jesus disposed of the sins of the entire world (everyone who ever lived) and (b) that much is implied in Jn 3:16. My dispute is that your logic can only lead to one inescapable conclusion--all men who have their sins disposed spend eternity w/ Jesus. You have no problem bypassing this truth b/c you simply avoid it by admitting that you are not a universalist. But the fact remains, the logic of your theology leads to only one conclusion. Otherwise, you foist logic and entertain contradictory doctrines. For certainly if Jesus did dispose of all of mankind's sin, then mankind has nothing to pay for in hell.

Now... I have you figured out. It is not hard. I was there in my views once too. I know of what I speak.

However... I would like to get back to the OP and John 3:16.

 

[MB]

Actually I don't know you at all. And I think you totally missed the point of what I was saying. Definitely not a stall tactic. But such an accusation reveals more about your character.

Your accusations have shown your true self accusing me of being a universalist or having a view that leads to universalisim.

Your logic is as follows... your view of Scripture teaches that "world" in John 3:16 means the "whole world" from 1 Jn 2:2. When asked what "propitiation" meant, you said it was the concept of the disposal of sin. Thus the logical inference is that (a) Jesus disposed of the sins of the entire world (everyone who ever lived) and (b) that much is implied in Jn 3:16. My dispute is that your logic can only lead to one inescapable conclusion--all men who have their sins disposed spend eternity w/ Jesus. You have no problem bypassing this truth b/c you simply avoid it by admitting that you are not a universalist. But the fact remains, the logic of your theology leads to only one conclusion. Otherwise, you foist logic and entertain contradictory doctrines. For certainly if Jesus did dispose of all of mankind's sin, then mankind has nothing to pay for in hell.

That is according to your own logic which isn't true at all it's just a theory. Not a proven fact as if it were! You still cannot deal with the fact that man must be willing because it is the willing man God works on .
Your view has God to blame for the sins you commit now. Your view makes God your pardner in sin because of His Sovereignty nothing happens with out His direction. What a pittiful dogma that makes our God responsible for your sins.

Now... I have you figured out. It is not hard. I was there in my views once too. I know of what I speak.

However... I would like to get back to the OP and John 3:16.

Yes Lets do that. You still haven't one instance of reason that proves your right at all. I showed you biblical proof that world means the whole world and for that you have stated it

"is a meaningless statement in Scripture if it says that Jesus disposed of every single person's sin"

Meaningless I can only suppose you don't believe what you read in scripture then. I've never read anything in scripture that is meaningless This shows your distrust of God's word
MB