Calvinist response to FotF commercial of John 3:16

[psalms109:31]

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Romans 12:1
[ A Living Sacrifice ] Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

2 Corinthians 7:11
See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

2 Timothy 2:
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

To love the world not as the world does, but to love the world as God does, by given them the same hope we have Jesus Christ.

 

[Grasshopper]

The unforgivable sin. The rejection of Christ. I can only imagine that this sin must be much worse than all other sins. It is ultimately what we burn the longest for.
MB

So Christ did not propitiate for this sin?

 

[psalms109:31]

Did Christ propitiate for those who do not trust or have not trusted in His finished work?

 

[webdog]

If Christ has disposed of all the sins of all the world, then what sins are
left for the lost man to pay for for all eternity?

The lost man can never repay God for his sin leaving God eternally unpaid. This is why an infinite sacrifice was required to pay an infinite penalty. This is Bible 101.

 

[Iconoclast]

The lost man can never repay God for his sin leaving God eternally unpaid. This is why an infinite sacrifice was required to pay an infinite penalty. This is Bible 101.

The second death is eternal because unpaid sin is never paid for.....that is why Jesus said it was not a good idea to go there. Man CANNOT pay....that is why God took upon flesh.....to remain apart from Christ is to remain in the place God has created for eternally damned persons.

 

[mandym]

If you didn't see it, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIdq_SipL-A&feature=share

Will there be any statements on the commercial's use of "world" as including "everyone" and "anyone"???

Thoughts?

I'm not a fan and see it as misleading. I find that John's use of "world" refers to every nation, tribe, tongue, etc. It is not his reference for all people but all peoples (see the distinction?). This is very missional and consistent with the OT teaching of God blessing the nations (cf. Paul on that in Gal. 3:8). Also, the emphasis on "whoever" over the real emphasis in the Greek which is "believes" was also subtle but misleading.

Well then be unhappy about it and carry on.

 

[webdog]

The second death is eternal because unpaid sin is never paid for.....that is why Jesus said it was not a good idea to go there. Man CANNOT pay....that is why God took upon flesh.....to remain apart from Christ is to remain in the place God has created for eternally damned persons.

...yet Christ said "it is finished". Sin was PIF at the cross. The only way for God's wrath to be satisfied is for justice to take place, being eternally unpaid for an infinite offense is not justice.

 

[convicted1]

Here we go around the mulberry tree....la la la la la la la


same song, different verse......

 

[Greektim]

Yet another fruitless discussion.

Your accusations have shown your true self accusing me of being a universalist or having a view that leads to universalisim.

If you read carefully, I never accused YOU of universalism, only that the logic of your VIEW leads to it. Quite a distinction, although I'm not sure you will see it.

That is according to your own logic which isn't true at all it's just a theory. Not a proven fact as if it were! You still cannot deal with the fact that man must be willing because it is the willing man God works on .
Your view has God to blame for the sins you commit now. Your view makes God your pardner in sin because of His Sovereignty nothing happens with out His direction. What a pittiful dogma that makes our God responsible for your sins.

Is this how you "win" debates... "that's your logic which is wrong" and expect that to be valid??? You should have a hard time attacking my views since this discussion has had your views (not mine) under the radar. What a pitiful display of dialogue.

Yes Lets do that. You still haven't one instance of reason that proves your right at all. I showed you biblical proof that world means the whole world and for that you have stated it

I gave you my theory back in the OP. I find it to be much more consistent with all of John's writings (especially Rev where the consummation of all things is detailed) than with just one (1 Jn 2:2) which uses the same word and is as oblique and ubiquitous as the instance in Jn 3:16. Neither verse proves the meaning of the other verse. So you have only shown me your eisegesis of 1 Jn inserted into Jn 3:16.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your interpretation is not valid. It is possible that John meant all of humanity that ever lived by the word "world." But I think that is inconsistent with Johannine theology and the missional theme throughout the Bible. So I'm not basing my reason on one prooftext (like 1 Jn 2:2) but the redemptive story of the Bible.

Meaningless I can only suppose you don't believe what you read in scripture then. I've never read anything in scripture that is meaningless This shows your distrust of God's word
MB

You clearly do not read the context of statements in my posts. I was explaining your logic thus stating your views show some Scripture to be meaningless. Yet again, your tactic is, "oh yeah... well same to you!" :tonofbricks:

 

[AresMan]

You still cannot deal with the fact that man must be willing because it is the willing man God works on .

Yeah, because we all know the mantra of libertarian free will. It's just assumed as a necessity and it can never be logically proven. The Almighty Creator of all things must be subject to the autonomous "free will" of the creation. The God Who fashioned the very fabric of the being of every person is somehow impotent to accomplish His own desires and purpose in every person and must submit to this phenomenon that somehow even transcends God's infinite and perfect knowledge.

If God's understanding is infinite (Ps 147:5) and His strongest desire regarding each person is that he is saved, why is it that He cannot seem to know what the necessary circumstances are, and what illumination is needed to bring each person to faith compatible with his own free will? Is there something here that even God does not know? We're talking about GOD here! Think!

 

[Van]

What is incredibly strange about this thread is it respresents Calvinist thinking that denies Calvinism. According to Calvinism everyone was saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and nothing anyone does (teaching children, focus on the family, etc) will alter that outcome.
False teaching, does not matter if Calvinism is right, but since Calvinism is false teaching, it matters much.

John uses the Greek word translated world in two ways and only two ways. He uses to refer to fallen mankind, that would be everyone, and to refer to the corrupt system of fallen mankind.

Calvinism is based on redefining the meaning of world. Draw means drag, choice means non-choice, world means whatever group fits the Calvinist template. It is a joke.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yeah, because we all know the mantra of libertarian free will. It's just assumed as a necessity and it can never be logically proven. The Almighty Creator of all things must be subject to the autonomous "free will" of the creation. The God Who fashioned the very fabric of the being of every person is somehow impotent to accomplish His own desires and purpose in every person and must submit to this phenomenon that somehow even transcends God's infinite and perfect knowledge.

If God's understanding is infinite (Ps 147:5) and His strongest desire regarding each person is that he is saved, why is it that He cannot seem to know what the necessary circumstances are, and what illumination is needed to bring each person to faith compatible with his own free will? Is there something here that even God does not know? We're talking about GOD here! Think!

What a totally crass and self determined argument. You know good and well NNE makes any type of claim that God is at the whims of we mere mortals but I deduce you like to set these false claims up in order to feel accomplished at dismantling them. Tell me, is it an impossibility for the infinite omniscient and all powerful God who created the fabric of ALL creation to design into that fabric the "free will" of sentient creatures and still be unable to accomplish His desires? Let's try not to play the game "My God is bigger than your God."

 

[Greektim]

What is incredibly strange about this thread is it respresents Calvinist thinking that denies Calvinism. According to Calvinism everyone was saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and nothing anyone does (teaching children, focus on the family, etc) will alter that outcome.
False teaching, does not matter if Calvinism is right, but since Calvinism is false teaching, it matters much.

John uses the Greek word translated world in two ways and only two ways. He uses to refer to fallen mankind, that would be everyone, and to refer to the corrupt system of fallen mankind.

Calvinism is based on redefining the meaning of world. Draw means drag, choice means non-choice, world means whatever group fits the Calvinist template. It is a joke.

Pontification... not surprising

And what do you base your definition of "world" on... yourself??? Your theology??? You system?

"Draw" means drag in every other place it is used. Plus the English word "draw" was used 500 years ago and kept in English translations. However, its true reference from the original language translated to English has the idea of drawing an arrow back in a bow or drawing a sword from its sheathe. Both ideas then have implicit in them to pull. It is the change of a word over time that has made "draw" something besides pull.

And where is "choice" ever used?

 

[preacher4truth]

If you didn't see it, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIdq_SipL-A&feature=share

Will there be any statements on the commercial's use of "world" as including "everyone" and "anyone"???

Thoughts?

I'm not a fan and see it as misleading. I find that John's use of "world" refers to every nation, tribe, tongue, etc. It is not his reference for all people but all peoples (see the distinction?). This is very missional and consistent with the OT teaching of God blessing the nations (cf. Paul on that in Gal. 3:8). Also, the emphasis on "whoever" over the real emphasis in the Greek which is "believes" was also subtle but misleading.

First off, I am no fan of Focus on the Family. I'm not saying all of their teachings are bad, but I believe their focus to be off, and to be frank, a little idolatrous, but that's just me.

Secondly, I have no problem in what these kids are saying, they are quoting a verse, and are too young to be little theologians. Are there some inaccuracies in what they are saying as far as "the world"? Of course.

However what they are doing in essence, and what we are doing is preaching the Gospel. Only His elect will respond to such, and His Grace will reach each of them, none of His will be lost.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I am not a Calvinist, but I am not anti-Calvinism. But sometimes Calvinists are their own worst enemies, just like some of us on the other side are our own worst enemy.

Instead of saying, "Wow, the Gospel was being preached in an attractive way with a verse that more people know than any other." The conversation is about how that these kids should have somehow explained that Christ's death was only for those whom God has elected.

If I understand Calvinism correctly, the only people who would have responded to this ad were those who were elected, so what's the big deal? When you present the Gospel to someone do you explain to them "If you're really elected, you'll understand this, but if you're not, you'll think I am talking in gibberish." As I understand it, you have no idea who is elect and who is not.

For heaven's sake just be glad someone talked about God giving His own and only Son and those who believe can have eternal life.

 

[mandym]

For heaven's sake just be glad someone talked about God giving His own and only Son and those who believe can have eternal life.

Well said. Amen! :thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

I am not a Calvinist, but I am not anti-Calvinism. But sometimes Calvinists are their own worst enemies, just like some of us on the other side are our own worst enemy.

Instead of saying, "Wow, the Gospel was being preached in an attractive way with a verse that more people know than any other." The conversation is about how that these kids should have somehow explained that Christ's death was only for those whom God has elected.

If I understand Calvinism correctly, the only people who would have responded to this ad were those who were elected, so what's the big deal? When you present the Gospel to someone do you explain to them "If you're really elected, you'll understand this, but if you're not, you'll think I am talking in gibberish." As I understand it, you have no idea who is elect and who is not.

For heaven's sake just be glad someone talked about God giving His own and only Son and those who believe can have eternal life.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

Yeah, because we all know the mantra of libertarian free will. It's just assumed as a necessity and it can never be logically proven. The Almighty Creator of all things must be subject to the autonomous "free will" of the creation. The God Who fashioned the very fabric of the being of every person is somehow impotent to accomplish His own desires and purpose in every person and must submit to this phenomenon that somehow even transcends God's infinite and perfect knowledge.

If God's understanding is infinite (Ps 147:5) and His strongest desire regarding each person is that he is saved, why is it that He cannot seem to know what the necessary circumstances are, and what illumination is needed to bring each person to faith compatible with his own free will? Is there something here that even God does not know? We're talking about GOD here! Think!

To reject that God elects, and that man chooses by free will, both working together to bring about the salvation of some, one has to reject the scriptures.

 

[psalms109:31]

1) to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Draw is the best translation not dragged, you don't see anyone dragged unless you want to just see it that way.

 

[Greektim]

I am not a Calvinist, but I am not anti-Calvinism. But sometimes Calvinists are their own worst enemies, just like some of us on the other side are our own worst enemy.

Instead of saying, "Wow, the Gospel was being preached in an attractive way with a verse that more people know than any other." The conversation is about how that these kids should have somehow explained that Christ's death was only for those whom God has elected.

If I understand Calvinism correctly, the only people who would have responded to this ad were those who were elected, so what's the big deal? When you present the Gospel to someone do you explain to them "If you're really elected, you'll understand this, but if you're not, you'll think I am talking in gibberish." As I understand it, you have no idea who is elect and who is not.

For heaven's sake just be glad someone talked about God giving His own and only Son and those who believe can have eternal life.

I appreciate what you are saying. And I am delighted that a commercial was quoting Scripture. If you notice, I was just looking for "responses" from Calvinist. It was not meant to be a critique of displaying the commercial. I am happy they quoted that verse on TV. My "response" is only that it was the typical, evangelical claim that "world" means "everybody". I was wondering if other calvi's had thoughts on it.