Calvinist response to FotF commercial of John 3:16

[Greektim]

1) to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Draw is the best translation not dragged, you don't see anyone dragged unless you want to just see it that way.

Actualy, I would dispute that and say that every occasion can replace the word "pull" or "drag". For instance, consider Jn 18:10 when the same word is used. It is in reference to pulling or drawing a sword from its scabbard. Jn 21:6 used the same word for pulling, dragging, or drawing in the fishing net. Acts 16:19 is the most obvious, when Paul and Silas were drug through the marketplace.

I would say that the only leg you have to stand is is Jn 6:44 that could possibly mean what you want it to mean. All the rest mean "pull" which back in the day "draw" connoted that as well.

 

[psalms109:31]

Actualy, I would dispute that and say that every occasion can replace the word "pull" or "drag". For instance, consider Jn 18:10 when the same word is used. It is in reference to pulling or drawing a sword from its scabbard. Jn 21:6 used the same word for pulling, dragging, or drawing in the fishing net. Acts 16:19 is the most obvious, when Paul and Silas were drug through the marketplace.

I would say that the only leg you have to stand is is Jn 6:44 that could possibly mean what you want it to mean. All the rest mean "pull" which back in the day "draw" connoted that as well.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

I will have to continue to believe draw. Learning is drawing to me, learned, be taught keywords.

 

[MB]

So Christ did not propitiate for this sin?

Not if you remain in your rejection of Christ.
Rejection can only be forgiven if you ask for it. Once you dead of course it's to late.
MB

 

[MB]

Yet another fruitless discussion.

If you read carefully, I never accused YOU of universalism, only that the logic of your VIEW leads to it. Quite a distinction, although I'm not sure you will see it.


Is this how you "win" debates... "that's your logic which is wrong" and expect that to be valid??? You should have a hard time attacking my views since this discussion has had your views (not mine) under the radar. What a pitiful display of dialogue.

What's pitiful is that you actually believe that 1st Jn. 2:2 is "meaningless" according to what you wrote in post 15

I gave you my theory back in the OP. I find it to be much more consistent with all of John's writings (especially Rev where the consummation of all things is detailed) than with just one (1 Jn 2:2) which uses the same word and is as oblique and ubiquitous as the instance in Jn 3:16. Neither verse proves the meaning of the other verse. So you have only shown me your eisegesis of 1 Jn inserted into Jn 3:16.

You wish. You really need to throw that logic of your's in the trash.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your interpretation is not valid. It is possible that John meant all of humanity that ever lived by the word "world." But I think that is inconsistent with Johannine theology and the missional theme throughout the Bible. So I'm not basing my reason on one prooftext (like 1 Jn 2:2) but the redemptive story of the Bible.

If this were true you would have countered with those scriptures from the rest of scripture inorder to prove your point. You didn't do that I suspect because you didn't have anything but your logical opinion

You clearly do not read the context of statements in my posts. I was explaining your logic thus stating your views show some Scripture to be meaningless. Yet again, your tactic is, "oh yeah... well same to you!" :tonofbricks:

Oh, yeah, sure.... Of course you can explain my Logic. I do not use logic I use scripture. This is what botherd you most.
MB

 

[Grasshopper]

Not if you remain in your rejection of Christ.
Rejection can only be forgiven if you ask for it. Once you dead of course it's to late.
MB

So Christ did not take upon Himself all the sins of the world.

When one comes to Christ is the sin of unbelief retroactively applied to Christ?

 

[Greektim]

What's pitiful is that you actually believe that 1st Jn. 2:2 is "meaningless" according to what you wrote in post 15

I believe nothing of the sort. Try reading post 15 and see to whom I am applying meaningless to. Try to understand the context of what I am saying and posing as a theoretical framework. Try...

You wish. You really need to throw that logic of your's in the trash.

Yeah... logic is so overrated... who needs it?

If this were true you would have countered with those scriptures from the rest of scripture inorder to prove your point. You didn't do that I suspect because you didn't have anything but your logical opinion

Here is the problem (which I'm sure you will either not read, misread, misunderstand, or simply ignore). My approach to Scripture is not one which simply involves prooftexting. For example, when asking about my views of eschatology, I can't just point you to a few passages in the Bible. I would have to take you to the grand narrative of Scripture and allow the story of the Bible to unfold. In this case, I employ a missional reading of the Scriptural story understanding God is on mission to bless the nations. That theme I believe is picked up in John's language through the employment of the word "world" although he means by it every tribe, tongue, and language. Naturally, you would understand a man's writing to improve and be more precise as he ages and matures in his writing abilities. Thus that kind of language (tribe, tongue, language) is found in Rev. where earlier writings John employs "world" generically. Therefore, it is my biblical theology and not my systematic theology that is gauging my interpretation. Understand?

Oh, yeah, sure.... Of course you can explain my Logic. I do not use logic I use scripture. This is what botherd you most.
MB

I'm not bothered by the fact that you "use scripture." Of course what you mean by that is that you use your interpretation of Scripture. You interpret things narrowly and have little time to consider other possible (and more likely meanings) than the ones you've contrived for yourself. Thus you reject logic (something good interpretation will agree with). So abandon logic and cling to the use of eisegesis (justified as "use scripture"). It is a false mantra lacking clarity and reality.

 

[Winman]

Actualy, I would dispute that and say that every occasion can replace the word "pull" or "drag". For instance, consider Jn 18:10 when the same word is used. It is in reference to pulling or drawing a sword from its scabbard. Jn 21:6 used the same word for pulling, dragging, or drawing in the fishing net. Acts 16:19 is the most obvious, when Paul and Silas were drug through the marketplace.

I would say that the only leg you have to stand is is Jn 6:44 that could possibly mean what you want it to mean. All the rest mean "pull" which back in the day "draw" connoted that as well.

Ok, let's say it does means to pull or drag such as a fishing net. Does a fisherman always capture every fish he pulls or drags in? No, and this is shown in scripture.

Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

The disciples did not capture every fish they dragged or pulled in, the net brake and some escaped. There is a spiritual application shown here if you will receive it.

 

[Greektim]

Ok, let's say it does means to pull or drag such as a fishing net. Does a fisherman always capture every fish he pulls or drags in? No, and this is shown in scripture.

Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

The disciples did not capture every fish they dragged or pulled in, the net brake and some escaped. There is a spiritual application shown here if you will receive it.

pffff

This is not how you study words and their meanings. And lest we forget, the word in question was not even used in Lk 5.

I am really at a loss for how to respond to this. There are so many logical errors here I am not sure where to begin.

At the basic level... "to pull" or "drag" or "draw" a fishing net has nothing (absolutely nothing) to do with what is pulled. Further, the word has zero to do with the result of what is being pulled. It is only a word that conveys a simple action.

And the reality is, the word is used more of pulling people or swords than it is of fishing, so that is a non sequitor.

 

[Grasshopper]

pffff

This is not how you study words and their meanings. And lest we forget, the word in question was not even used in Lk 5.

I am really at a loss for how to respond to this. There are so many logical errors here I am not sure where to begin.

At the basic level... "to pull" or "drag" or "draw" a fishing net has nothing (absolutely nothing) to do with what is pulled. Further, the word has zero to do with the result of what is being pulled. It is only a word that conveys a simple action.

And the reality is, the word is used more of pulling people or swords than it is of fishing, so that is a non sequitor.

Winman does crack me up sometimes.:laugh:

 

[Christos doulos]

If you didn't see it, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIdq_SipL-A&feature=share

Will there be any statements on the commercial's use of "world" as including "everyone" and "anyone"???

Thoughts?

I'm not a fan and see it as misleading. I find that John's use of "world" refers to every nation, tribe, tongue, etc. It is not his reference for all people but all peoples (see the distinction?). This is very missional and consistent with the OT teaching of God blessing the nations (cf. Paul on that in Gal. 3:8). Also, the emphasis on "whoever" over the real emphasis in the Greek which is "believes" was also subtle but misleading.

I loved it!

 

[Van]

Reply to Greektim,

Pontification... not surprising

Questioning my qualifications and character is without merit, a logical fallacy as far as defending your assertions.

And what do you base your definition of "world" on... yourself??? Your theology??? You system?

The lexicons include those two meanings. I did a study of every usage by John of the word and found that these two meanings fit every usage.

"Draw" means drag in every other place it is used. Plus the English word "draw" was used 500 years ago and kept in English translations. However, its true reference from the original language translated to English has the idea of drawing an arrow back in a bow or drawing a sword from its sheathe. Both ideas then have implicit in them to pull. It is the change of a word over time that has made "draw" something besides pull.

False on three fronts, Jerome pointed out that the OED said it meant attract over 400 years ago. Strike one. John 12:32 uses the word to indicate attract all men, strike two. The Septuagint uses this same word to say God draws by lovingkindness, strike three.

Calvinism relies on redefining the meanings of words to pour their manmade doctrine into the text, hence draw means drag, choice means non-choice, and world means whatever fits the Calvinist template. It is a joke.

 

[MB]

I believe nothing of the sort. Try reading post 15 and see to whom I am applying meaningless to. Try to understand the context of what I am saying and posing as a theoretical framework. Try...

Well you are the one who wrote it. I'm not a mind reader so I have no idea what you really think. You did say 1st. Jn 2:2 was meaningless. And said it did not support the fact that Christ died for everyone's sins.

Yeah... logic is so overrated... who needs it?

You don't need logic to understand scripture all we need is God. I always consider Him and His word. You should too.

Here is the problem (which I'm sure you will either not read, misread, misunderstand, or simply ignore).

Well you are right here. I won't read the rest of what you wrote. Simply carrying on a conversation with you is completely undesireable.
MB

 

[Alive in Christ]

PadreDurand...

God will redeem all of His elect.

The more accurate way of saying that would be...

God will redeem all of the "who-soever-wills.

 

[Iconoclast]

...yet Christ said "it is finished". Sin was PIF at the cross. The only way for God's wrath to be satisfied is for justice to take place,The only way for God's wrath to be satisfied is for justice to take place, .

yet Christ said "it is finished". Sin was PIF at the cross.

Hello WD,

Yes...The sins of the Covenant children were PIF....yes....

If we were agreed on whose sin was paid for...we could agree.

I see the truth of the sins of the elect, in particular as actually paid in full.

When you try to say that all mens sins are paid for[potentially] we differ.

The only way for God's wrath to be satisfied is for justice to take place,

Yes......all sins must be punished......in the sinner,or in the substitute

When Jesus dies for His people[elect sheep] their sins are paid in full as Jesus undergo's the wrath for them....it is finished!
When I see the blood...I will passover you. 1cor 5:7
For those outside of Jesus...the wrath of God is revealed at judgement day,they have no propitiation to turn away the wrath...so they undergo that wrath as scripture says ...without mercy.

The only way for God's wrath to be satisfied is for justice to take place,

justice takes place when all sin is paid for by God's righteous judgement.

 

[webdog]

If all sin was not PIF at the cross, death and the curse will remain for all creation outside the "elect". Yet we know all creation groans in anticipation of redemption.

 

[Iconoclast]

If all sin was not PIF at the cross, death and the curse will remain for all creation outside the "elect". Yet we know all creation groans in anticipation of redemption.

Well okay...that is also an important consideration....my first thought would be that at judgement day this sin cursed earth and all remnants of the curse will be destroyed and cast into hell...the earth and the evil works burnt up... and the new heaven and new earth which we have entered as citizens will be manifest;

for the non elect....yes they remain in the realm of death...seperated fron God....under the curse of death...but second death;

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Jesus does refer to the goats as cursed

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

WD,
I cannot help too much with this as I am constantly re-examing this topic of the ...already/not yet in reference to the kingdom.
I believe the Kingdom is now.....growing and expanding as the gospel spreads worldwide to all men[jn 3:16] How much we are to have an effect here and now....how and why we[local churches] are coming short of Kingdom responsibilites...how can we better "occupy" until he comes?

I am currently considering some of the Ot prophetic passages..seeing what they tell us about the conduct of the gentiles who come to the light.

 

[Iconoclast]

WD,
I cannot help too much with this as I am constantly re-examing this topic of the ...already/not yet in reference to the kingdom.
I believe the Kingdom is now.....growing and expanding as the gospel spreads worldwide to all men[jn 3:16] How much we are to have an effect here and now....how and why we[local churches] are coming short of Kingdom responsibilites...how can we better "occupy" until he comes?

I am currently considering some of the Ot prophetic passages..seeing what they tell us about the conduct of the gentiles who come to the light.
__________________

WD....do you see all the kingdom as future?
What do you see as happening in our lives now?

 

[quantumfaith]

Thank you Icon for the most recent posts in this discussion. This is how civil and mutually respectful dialogue should happen, even knowing that one is some distance theologically from the other.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you Icon for the most recent posts in this discussion. This is how civil and mutually respectful dialogue should happen, even knowing that one is some distance theologically from the other.

QF,
Believers have real enemies to contend with.....the world, the flesh ,and the devil.
I would like it more if we could work to upgrade the BB....into a fountain of grace,instruction and edification....
A message board has it's ups and downs...new persons come in ,and want to lash out at "error"...we are all susceptible to getting over-heated and blowing a fuse.
When error is perceived...it is correct to offer correction. Sometimes if our emotions are not in check...we can be harsh or over-react..in a fleshly way, when trying to offer the correction however.
I have sinned in this way....and I have noticed that quite possibly some others have as well....maybe, just maybe all of us for sure.
If our internal thoughts were made manifest on the board...we would all be guilty for sure.....like Paul in Romans 7 .....of wretched man that I am...not oh wretched man that I was:laugh:

QF....you have a certain kind of personality...that comes from being in an academic setting
[ although the teachers lounge can be a caldron of lewd conversation from time to time].
Also if you have walked with the Lord for some time you will exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.
Some of us are in different situations. That does not excuse rough, or base behaviour...but sometimes like Lot ....our souls are vexed with the conversation of the wicked. The world wants to ...rub off on us.
We must watch unto prayer.

Many have expressed this same concern in recent weeks..and some small progress has been made. If it grows, the BB will progress toward being a worthwhile place to edify all who come in.

 

[Tom Butler]

This sort of a drive-by post where I will share my vast knowledge and insights, then humbly step aside.

I want to deal with the word "world," because it is important to understand that the word does not always mean every person without exception.

Let's look at some of its uses in the Bible.
Unbelievers vs. sinners
John 7:17 Jesus speaking

The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to what is evil.

John 12:31

Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out

John 14:27

--the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him....

See also John 15:18 Matthew 18:9 Revelation 13:3

Gentiles vs. Jews
Romans 11:12-15

Now if their [Jews] fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

A cross-section of tongues, tribes, nations
Revelation 5:9

And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

See also 7:9

The created universe
Matthew 13:38

The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the Kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

See also Matthew 26:13 Acts 17:24

The generality of known people
John 12:19b

behold, the world has gone after him.

See also John 7:4 Matthew 24:14
(Source A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine by Thomas Paul Simmons 1935)

Hope this helps advance the discussion.