Calvinist template.

[MrW]

I don’t resent anyone disbelieving Eternal Security. I didn’t believe in it either, for 20 years or so. I just accepted what people told me. And I thought, just like you, that my faith was keeping me saved, and as long as I didn’t reject Christ, I would always be accepted of Christ, so, while I believed a person could be lost again, I figured I wouldn’t be because I would not quit believing. I was depending on myself to keep myself saved, and I figured I was doing a pretty good job. I argued against anybody who believed in eternal security. I refined all my arguments against it through my misunderstanding.

Then one day, I realized I had never prayed about it, so I asked God if it was real. Two weeks later, I was reading, Dr. Walter Martin’s book, Kingdom of the Cults, and he made the statement that God knew every sin I would ever commit before Christ died for me, rose again, and saved me. And I knew that was right. I realized then, that if I was going to ultimately be lost, God would never have saved me in the first place, because he never makes a mistake. He never says oops. And if God had truly saved me, there was no future sin that was going to cause me to be lost, because when Christ died from me, all my sins were future. Therefore, I saw that I didn’t have to worry about being lost again and saved again and lost again and saved again. I just needed to make my calling and election sure. In fact, I never see anyone in Scripture getting saved, and lost again, and saved again. If a person could be lost again, he could never be saved again, and that doesn’t fit with Christ never losing His sheep, nor does it fit with eternal life.

Unlike many people I see who profess to be Christians, I have never taken salvation for granted. It is the most precious treasure a person can have, and I thank God for it every day. I honor God, I praise God, I worship God, every day. I am very conscious of my sins and of God‘s forgiveness and of Christ having saved me. I did not save myself, and I could not keep myself saved by my performance, because my performance still fails from time to time. I am saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am kept by the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is what I depend on, and will depend on for the rest of my life. Without Him, I am nothing. I depend on Him every moment. My rest is in Him, not in my abilities, not even my faith in Him, but HIS faith in me. Galatians 2:20.

 

[MrW]

I’m not Calvinist nor Arminian. I TRY to be a BBC, a Bible Believing Christian.

I try to read and understand it without twisting it, like Calvinists do, especially.

Scripture references on Eternal Security thread.

 

[MrW]

I looked up G5281. It is always rendered as “patience”, or “patient”, except once “continuing” and once “enduring”.

While somewhat interesting, my KJB is my authority, not out-of-context definitions of the Greek word translated by Greek (or Hebrew or Aramaic) scholars much more conversant with the languages and manuscripts than I will ever be.

 

[Silverhair]

No Calvinism. Faith is not a work. It is how God requires we receive His grace toward us—believing His Word and His Son. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not by a mysterious gifting. One is convicted of sin and of being a sinner, Godly sorrow works repentance, one believes the Scripture and is converted, regenerated, saved.

Then everything changes. There’s a new creation. All is new. One’s spirit is made alive to God and made one with Christ’s Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17). He is known of God, made a partaker of the divine nature, one of Christ’s sheep. The Spirit of Christ in the believer will never let him go. He is in God’s hands. Christ loses no sheep. His never perish. Never means never. One has eternal life. Eternal means eternal, not temporary. What is joined to Christ will never go to hell.

The problem is people have a religious experience and think they’re saved. They look good for a time. Some even preach. But there’s no root, they’re not in Christ (think of the Parable of the Sower, only 25% actually brought forth fruit, and of Matthew 7:21-23—they claimed salvation by their great performance but were never born again; Christ NEVER knew them—they only had a religious experience of some kind).

I believe when a person is saved there IS performance, there is fruit (some thirty fold, some sixty, some a hundred) but the performance, the fruit, their perseverance, does not keep them saved. The ROOT is Who keeps them, preserves them; without Christ we can do nothing to save ourselves nor keep ourselves. What is born of flesh is still flesh and fleshly good works save no one, nor does dead faith. The Holy Spirit God puts into the saved person keeps the person forever, and brings forth fruit and manifests works pleasing to God, by the Spirit, not by flesh.

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but CHRIST liveth IN ME, and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith OF the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me.

The Lord Jesus is in every saved person by the Holy Spirit and He is not going to die a second death, nor is the person He is in. The saved person is kept, preserved, by the power of God, not his own power. Apart from Him, we are weak, powerless, but through Christ in us we have His strength.

The broken off branches refers to Israel nationally. Israel nationally will be restored. They were broken off nationally nearly 2000 years but many individuals were saved by trusting Christ. Israel nationally will be restored eventually, meanwhile individuals are still being saved (Romans 1:16).

I have agreed with you because you have been right to oppose the errors of Calvinism. The point they almost had right (Eternal Security), they even got it wrong because of trusting their perseverance (human effort) instead of trusting the work of the Holy Spirit that preserves the believer, enabling him to persevere. When a person is saved, it’s all of Christ, as we walk in the Spirit.

Once saved, always saved, is true—but a person has to get the “once” before he can get the “always”. About 3 out of 4 of the “professors” have never been “possessors”, thus all the apostasy on the internet, TV preachers, false apostles and false prophets, and tares in the churches.

Make your calling and election SURE. Examine yourselves—know ye not that Christ is in you, except ye be reprobate? If He’s in you, it’s forever. Make sure He is. Don’t just take it for granted, and fool oneself.

I can understand that you hold to OSAS but I have a different understanding of what the bible shows. You have taken the sower parable and concluded that seed 2 & 3 did not really believe. So the question is why add them to the parable? You have 1, 2 & 3 as never believing and only 4 believing. Christ uses 2 & 3 to show that not all that trust in Him will endure the trials that they will face. Mar 4:16-19: Many will fall away and be lost.

We see this again in His comparison of Himself to a vine. Those that abide in Him are saved those that do not continue to abide in Him are cut off and thrown into the fire. Mat 15: 5-7 and again in Rom 11:19-21 in the warning to the Gentiles.

Some see OSAS as a positive where I see it as a negative. If a person believes that they are saved no matter what they do then what reason do they have to live a Godly life? That is why we see so many "christians" that are as worldly as non-christians. The OSAS view leads to the idea that I have my ticket and my seat is reserved.

Now do I believe in eternal security, of course. God will loose none that continue believe in Him, but that is the qualifier. They continue to believe in Him. So in that sense I can agree with what you said re OSAS "a person has to get the “once” before he can get the “always" but I would add and continue to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

I’m not Calvinist nor Arminian. I TRY to be a BBC, a Bible Believing Christian.

I try to read and understand it without twisting it, like Calvinists do, especially.

Scripture references on Eternal Security thread.

In that we can agree. I like the shorthand BBC, works well for me also.

 

[Alan Gross]

Then one day, I realized I had never prayed about it, so I asked God if it was real.

 

[MrW]

In that we can agree. I like the shorthand BBC, works well for me also.

They may have had that "religious experience" belief. Some kind of mental assent, but it appears they were not converted, because the converted folks brought forth varying amounts of faith. Remember Paul mentioned "...except ye believed in vain". How does a person believe in vain? "Vain" means "uselessly", so it seems they had some kind of surface faith, but it wasn't believed enough to "convince" God to grant them the new birth.

That's the bottom line for me. The Lord Jesus said, "You MUST be born again." And per John, chapter 1, it's God Himself that does the "new birthing". In response to our genuine, saving faith, yes, but it is still done by the will of God, and no man can force Him to do it. Maybe He knows so-and-so will fall away--therefore He doesn't bring them to the birth (I know He knows it all--I am just saying maybe this is the reason). Isaiah 37:3 says, "And they said unto him, 'Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.'"

Not enough of faith for the new birth--and I wonder about this, also: A man can believe the sun will come up. He can believe it will rain. He can believe the moon will go through its phases, but that is strictly human faith, natural faith--it is not supernatural, spiritual faith. It's a start, but not a finish. Perhaps the answer is that we believe the best we can, and IF we do believe the best we can, then the faith OF Christ (the Author and Finisher [Perfecter] of our faith) is supplied to the sincere believer and the supernatural spiritual birth of the believer is accomplished, per the will of God.

I do think there's more to it than mere human faith. A man can jump out of an airplane with all the faith a human can muster that the parachute will save him, yet if it's a backpack, not a parachute, he's a dead man. There has to be an object to faith, and that object must be real, and I'm thinking the faith must be the faith OF Christ, that is, the kind of faith that comes from hearing the Word of God and it taking root and growing in the heart until it comes to fruition.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy", First Act of Hamlet, William Shakespeare. We don't know it all. That's where Calvinist's errors stem from--they try to put it under a microscope and figure out every last detail, ignoring Deuteronomy 29:29. The fact is, salvation is simple. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." There is a lot that goes along with that, but it's where a person starts, just like the thief on the cross that trusted Christ, and trusting Him, I am convinced He will not allow me to be lost. I gave up my unbelief when I trusted Him.

 

[Alan Gross]

That's the bottom line for me. The Lord Jesus said, "You MUST be born again."

 

[MrW]

I can understand that you hold to OSAS but I have a different understanding of what the bible shows. You have taken the sower parable and concluded that seed 2 & 3 did not really believe. So the question is why add them to the parable? You have 1, 2 & 3 as never believing and only 4 believing. Christ uses 2 & 3 to show that not all that trust in Him will endure the trials that they will face. Mar 4:16-19: Many will fall away and be lost.

We see this again in His comparison of Himself to a vine. Those that abide in Him are saved those that do not continue to abide in Him are cut off and thrown into the fire. Mat 15: 5-7 and again in Rom 11:19-21 in the warning to the Gentiles.

Some see OSAS as a positive where I see it as a negative. If a person believes that they are saved no matter what they do then what reason do they have to live a Godly life? That is why we see so many "christians" that are as worldly as non-christians. The OSAS view leads to the idea that I have my ticket and my seat is reserved.

Now do I believe in eternal security, of course. God will loose none that continue believe in Him, but that is the qualifier. They continue to believe in Him. So in that sense I can agree with what you said re OSAS "a person has to get the “once” before he can get the “always" but I would add and continue to believe.

“What reason do they have to live a Godly life?”

If the reason they have to live a Godly life is to be saved and not be lost then their salvation is absolutely based on works. Strictly performance based. Afraid if they don’t live good enough, they’re not going to make it.

The way I understand Scripture is that the reason we live Godly lives is because we have been born again, we have been made new creations in Christ Jesus, we have a new man living inside us that wants to please God because we love Him and because we have gratitude for what he has done for us.

Someone said those who believe in OSAS feel like they can live however they want to live and it doesn’t matter because they’re once saved, always saved.

My reply is that if a person is truly saved, they CAN live however they want to because they will want to live right before God. They will want to please him.

Adrian Rogers said he sinned all he wanted to, but he didn’t want to. I understand that. I sin more than I want to. I wish I would never sin. So I can be sure I’ll get into Heaven? So I can be sure I will stay saved? No, because living right doesn’t save me. Christ saves me. I want to live right because I want to please my Heavenly Father and my Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

They may have had that "religious experience" belief. Some kind of mental assent, but it appears they were not converted, because the converted folks brought forth varying amounts of faith. Remember Paul mentioned "...except ye believed in vain". How does a person believe in vain? "Vain" means "uselessly", so it seems they had some kind of surface faith, but it wasn't believed enough to "convince" God to grant them the new birth.

That's the bottom line for me. The Lord Jesus said, "You MUST be born again." And per John, chapter 1, it's God Himself that does the "new birthing". In response to our genuine, saving faith, yes, but it is still done by the will of God, and no man can force Him to do it. Maybe He knows so-and-so will fall away--therefore He doesn't bring them to the birth (I know He knows it all--I am just saying maybe this is the reason). Isaiah 37:3 says, "And they said unto him, 'Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.'"

Not enough of faith for the new birth--and I wonder about this, also: A man can believe the sun will come up. He can believe it will rain. He can believe the moon will go through its phases, but that is strictly human faith, natural faith--it is not supernatural, spiritual faith. It's a start, but not a finish. Perhaps the answer is that we believe the best we can, and IF we do believe the best we can, then the faith OF Christ (the Author and Finisher [Perfecter] of our faith) is supplied to the sincere believer and the supernatural spiritual birth of the believer is accomplished, per the will of God.

I do think there's more to it than mere human faith. A man can jump out of an airplane with all the faith a human can muster that the parachute will save him, yet if it's a backpack, not a parachute, he's a dead man. There has to be an object to faith, and that object must be real, and I'm thinking the faith must be the faith OF Christ, that is, the kind of faith that comes from hearing the Word of God and it taking root and growing in the heart until it comes to fruition.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy", First Act of Hamlet, William Shakespeare. We don't know it all. That's where Calvinist's errors stem from--they try to put it under a microscope and figure out every last detail, ignoring Deuteronomy 29:29. The fact is, salvation is simple. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." There is a lot that goes along with that, but it's where a person starts, just like the thief on the cross that trusted Christ, and trusting Him, I am convinced He will not allow me to be lost. I gave up my unbelief when I trusted Him.

I can see that you do not agree with what I do so we we just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

“What reason do they have to live a Godly life?”

If the reason they have to live a Godly life is to be saved and not be lost then their salvation is absolutely based on works. Strictly performance based. Afraid if they don’t live good enough, they’re not going to make it.

The way I understand Scripture is that the reason we live Godly lives is because we have been born again, we have been made new creations in Christ Jesus, we have a new man living inside us that wants to please God because we love Him and because we have gratitude for what he has done for us.

Someone said those who believe in OSAS feel like they can live however they want to live and it doesn’t matter because they’re once saved, always saved.

My reply is that if a person is truly saved, they CAN live however they want to because they will want to live right before God. They will want to please him.

Adrian Rogers said he sinned all he wanted to, but he didn’t want to. I understand that. I sin more than I want to. I wish I would never sin. So I can be sure I’ll get into Heaven? So I can be sure I will stay saved? No, because living right doesn’t save me. Christ saves me. I want to live right because I want to please my Heavenly Father and my Lord Jesus Christ.

Understand I am not saying the works save you, they do not. And those that trust in the OSAS and still live worldly are not trying to save themselves through works as they are already saved remember.

You asked the question “What reason do they have to live a Godly life?” That is what I am saying. They have none. They could even deny God and under OSAS they will go to heaven when they die. I did outreach teaching at one of our church drop in centers. It would surprise you at how many, what you would call worldly people, would tell me that they knew they were saved and nothing could change that. When you asked them way they believed that the answer you got was they said the prayer and God would not lie. So OSAS.

If you follow the OSAS teaching that we see out there the people are being told they are saved and then not much else. That view has closed off more people to actual salvation than anything else I have come across and that even includes the frozen chosen of calvinism.

If I am understanding you correctly anyone that is "truly saved" will live for Christ and will not fall away, Actually can't fall away as Christ will keep them no matter what.

Do a search for "derek webb" he was the lead singer of Caedmons call.

 

[MrW]

You make my point. They never got past the “once”, thus they are disqualified for the “always”.

Living right does NOT get anyone saved.

Getting saved makes you live right.

 

[Silverhair]

You make my point. They never got past the “once”, thus they are disqualified for the “always”.

Living right does NOT get anyone saved.

Getting saved makes you live right.

You are missing the point. They believed that they were saved thus the OSAS. That is why that view is so dangerous, it closes off from salvation those that have trusted the preacher that has sold them a bill of goods.

The teaching of OSAS has lead people to hell. What we should be teaching people is that a personal faith in Christ will lead to a changed live. If you do not have a changed life then you need to question your salvation. Even those that have trusted in Christ if they do not continue to trust in Him will be lost. Eternal security is for those that continue to trust in Christ not for those that did it once and then latter deny Him which OSAS has lead people to believe.

 

[MrW]

You are missing the point. They believed that they were saved thus the OSAS. That is why that view is so dangerous, it closes off from salvation those that have trusted the preacher that has sold them a bill of goods.

The teaching of OSAS has lead people to hell. What we should be teaching people is that a personal faith in Christ will lead to a changed live. If you do not have a changed life then you need to question your salvation. Even those that have trusted in Christ if they do not continue to trust in Him will be lost. Eternal security is for those that continue to trust in Christ not for those that did it once and then latter deny Him which OSAS has lead people to believe.

No, it does not cut them off. As long as they are alive, they have many opportunities to read Scripture, to listen to a preacher in church, to hear Bible preaching on the radio, even some TV. Also, the Holy Spirit is not limited in his ability to convince and convict them of sin, and of their need to truly receive Christ. They have no excuse. It’s on their own head and believing a true Bible doctrine does not excuse them from trusting in Christ alone.

 

[MrW]

The people in Matthew 7:21-23 believed they were saved, too.

The Lord did not accept their excuse.

 

[MrW]

No, it does not cut them off. As long as they are alive, they have many opportunities to read Scripture, to listen to a preacher in church, to hear Bible preaching on the radio, even some TV. Also, the Holy Spirit is not limited in his ability to convince and convict them of sin, and of their need to truly receive Christ. They have no excuse. It’s on their own head and believing a true Bible doctrine does not excuse them from trusting in Christ alone.

I just read Acts 9. The first 29 verses demonstrate clearly how powerfully God can reach a person, in this case, a man totally convinced he was doing the will of God, by arresting and imprisoning the disciples of Christ, and God changed him completely in a few seconds of time.

He can still do it. And when He does, they can know the reality of the security in trusting in Christ and not themselves, and how well they can force flesh to perform. We need reality in our Christian walk, and that begins with the truth that frees us.

 

[37818]

The people in Matthew 7:21-23 believed they were saved, too.

The Lord did not accept their excuse.

I think a question one should ask is what one should understand God's will is that was not done, verse 21. My view is salvation must be solely an unmerited gift.

 

[Silverhair]

No, it does not cut them off. As long as they are alive, they have many opportunities to read Scripture, to listen to a preacher in church, to hear Bible preaching on the radio, even some TV. Also, the Holy Spirit is not limited in his ability to convince and convict them of sin, and of their need to truly receive Christ. They have no excuse. It’s on their own head and believing a true Bible doctrine does not excuse them from trusting in Christ alone.

You just proved my point @MrW. People always have the opportunity. But those that are already saved because of that OSAS preaching do not think they need to. That is the problem. Why would you think you need to be saved if you already are?

The only time that one can be absolute certainty that they are saved is when they are with Christ in heaven. Up to that point there is always the possibility that they could turn away. That is why Paul tells them "Do not be haughty, but fear." Rom 11:20

What do you think Paul is saying here:
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Paul is telling believers that if they turn away from Christ in unbelief they will, not might, be cut off, be lost.
I think the most dangerous time for the Christian is when they become complacent and that is what OSAS has done for many. Why do you think Paul said "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..." Php 2:12 to believers. It is because we are never so close to a fall as when we think it could not happen. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith,..." 1Pe 5:8-9

Many have used this next verse to show that believers that turn away can latter be brought back but that is not what this verse says.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

The Jews had not trusted in Christ, thus unbelief, but rather their works or the fact they were born a Jew for their salvation.

As Christians we are secure in Christ but we are only in Christ as long as we continue to believe in Christ.

 

[MrW]

What do you think Paul is saying here:
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

I addressed that already. He was referring to national Israel. Individuals were saved, but Israel as a whole was cut off until the latter days.

I think we all believe God knew from the beginning who would believe and be saved and who would not. The names are in His Book. I am sure that God would know whether a man would die "in the faith" or not, and if not, God would never save the man, because God makes no mistakes. I am secure in Christ, IF I have been born again in the first place.

 

[MrW]

I think a question one should ask is what one should understand God's will is that was not done, verse 21. My view is salvation must be solely an unmerited gift.

God's will is that they believe on the one whom He has sent, the Lord Jesus Christ.