Calvinist template.

[Silverhair]

What do you think Paul is saying here:
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

I addressed that already. He was referring to national Israel. Individuals were saved, but Israel as a whole was cut off until the latter days.

I think we all believe God knew from the beginning who would believe and be saved and who would not. The names are in His Book. I am sure that God would know whether a man would die "in the faith" or not, and if not, God would never save the man, because God makes no mistakes. I am secure in Christ, IF I have been born again in the first place.

Paul was saying that the Jews, natural branches, were cut of for unbelief and he was warning the Gentile believers that the same could happen to them. Notice his words the comparison made in vs 17 "if some of the branches {Jews} were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, {Gentiles} were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,"

You have misread the text. Jews, natural branches, were broken off through unbelief and Gentiles, wild olive branches, were grafted in. Thus the warning to keep the faith as they could be cut off also.

The figure of the apostle is a very vivid and beautiful one. The ancient root or stock, that of Abraham, etc. was good. The branches - the Jews in the time of the apostle - had become decayed and unfruitful, and broken off. The Gentiles had been grafted into this stock, and had restored the decayed vigor of the ancient people of God; and a fruitless church had become vigorous and flourishing. But the apostle soon proceeds to keep the Gentiles from exaltation on account of this. ...The ingrafted limb would derive nourishment from the root as much as though it were a natural branch of the tree. The Gentiles derived now the benefit of Abraham’s faith and holy labors, and of the promises made to him and to his seed. ...If God did not refrain from rejecting the Jews who became unbelievers, assuredly he will not refrain from rejecting you in the same circumstances. Barnes

 

[37818]

God's will is that they believe on the one whom He has sent, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes. But how they believed. . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . .

 

[SavedByGrace]

Total Depravity: The lost can only be saved by means of a gift, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8.

Unmerited Conditional Election: One cannot be elect except by means of faith in the gospel, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 1:16.

Limited Not Atonement: A not limited Atonement is necessary in order for one to really know Christ gives one eternal life, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:9-13.

Irresistible Grace: Salvation is a gift, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 6:23, 1 John 5:13.

Perseverance of the Saints: God who does the saving does the keeping, John 10:27-30.

Very simply. John 3:16-18 destroys the TULI in TULIP, and renders it UNBIBLICAL!

 

[Alan Gross]

Very simply. John 3:16-18 destroys the TULI in TULIP, and renders it UNBIBLICAL!

"Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

the T... in TULIP

T—"TOTAL DEPRAVITY": Man (by and after the fall) is totally depraved,
or corrupt; he is unable to do anything toward his own salvation.

"The opposing view is that since man is accountable before God
to repent and believe the Gospel, he must therefore be able to do so."

”Total Depravity is the condition of spiritual blindness:
it cannot comprehend light. Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3:3, that:
“Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God”.

Man by and after the fall has a spiritual IQ of 0.00000.

He is blind, deaf and ignorant of God, His Christ,
and His Word (John 17:25).

Man, in his inner spiritual life before God,
in order “to receive,” “believe on,” or “come to” Christ,
stands in need of a new birth (John 1:13; 3:3 above, 5, 7).

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5.

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:7.

In his inner spiritual life before God, man's darkened eyes
need to be opened and enlightened to know the truth.

His wayward affections need to be turned
that he might love the light and hate darkness.

His obstinate will must be enabled by a powerful work of God
so he might “believe on,” “come to,” and “follow” Christ.

Jesus emphasized fallen man’s spiritual ignorance in two matters:
(1) that God has a gracious gift that man needs,
and (2) that He (the Christ) is the giver of that gift (John 4:10-26).

Perhaps, you haven't, but Jesus found this spiritual ignorance in Nicodemus,
the teacher in Israel, in John 3:10;

"Jesus answered and said unto him,
Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

There is, therefore, an inability on man’s part
to receive not only the witness of the Father,
but also the witness of the Son, in John 3:11;

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know,
and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness."

Jesus stated that an unregenerate man is unable to believe in Him,
again, Jesus told Nicodemus,

“If I have told you earthly things,
and ye believe not, how shall ye believe,
if I tell you of heavenly things?” John 3:12.

Then, in John 3:16 teaches that man is destined to perish eternally:
Jesus told Nicodemus that only those who are believers will “not perish”
and have eternal life.

All non-believers will therefore “perish” eternally (John 3:16c).

 

[Alan Gross]

John 3:16-18

From our text, John 3:16-18, we see that:

All non-believers will therefore “perish” eternally,

where John 3:16 teaches that man is destined to perish eternally:
when we see Jesus told Nicodemus that only those who are believers
will “not perish” and have eternal life and that
all non-believers will therefore “perish” eternally (John 3:16c).

And as we also see from our text, below, in John 3:18,


"he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 3:16-18;

16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life."


17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved."

18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

The ones in John 3:18; "that believeth not", are those in vs 20, below,
who hate the Light and loves darkness, and in John 3:19, we see;

"And this is the condemnation,
that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness
rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

Because of man’s condition as an evildoer,
he is not merely indifferent to the Light,
but he also does not come to the Light—
and even hates the Light—
because it exposes his evil deeds, as we see in John 3:20;

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,
neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

So, what is man’s activity before God?

The Gospel of John teaches very clearly
that the expression of man’s condition before God
is seen in his actions.

Jesus taught, as we saw above;

“that men loved darkness rather than light
because their deeds were evil.

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,
neither cometh to the light,
lest his deeds should be reproved [exposed]” (John 3:19, 20).

In verse 19 the word translated “evil” indicates an active evil,
one that is “pernicious” or “destructive.”

In verse 20 the word “evil” indicates the “worthlessness”
of those deeds, their “good-for-nothingness” before God.

The first word (in John 3:19)
may be used to describe the root of such a one
whose inner life is described in these following 3 items:

1. Man’s spiritual knowledge is shown in the prologue of the Gospel
(John 1:1-18), where we are confronted
with man’s condition after the fall (John 1: 5):

“And the light shineth in darkness;
and the darkness comprehended it not.”

2. Man’s spiritual affections are manifested in what he loves
and what he hates.

Man naturally has an antipathy to God,
Christ, the True Light, His Word, and His people.

John pointed out this antipathy in Chapter 1 when he wrote,

“He [the Word (v. 1), the Life (v. 4), the Light (vv. 4-5, 9)]
came unto His own [the Jews],
and His own received Him not”, in John 1:11.

3. Man’s spiritual volition is the critical point within the critical point.

It is important to recognize that man makes his decisions freely
—but on the basis of his interest (sin, self, and Satan)
and his affections, which are opposed to God,
His Christ, and His Word.

Man's decisions, then, though freely arrived at, can only be wrong.

Jesus taught that man is plagued by a twofold inability.

First, man cannot come to Him for life.

Jesus Himself stated,

“No man can come to Me,
except the Father which hath sent Me draw him”, in John 6:44.

Again Jesus says,

“Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me,
except it were given unto Him of My Father”, in John 6:65.

Then, back again, to John 3:19 & 20,
where we were looking at the two words, "evil";

“that men loved darkness rather than light
because their deeds were evil."


"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,
neither cometh to the light,
lest his deeds should be reproved [exposed]” (John 3:19, 20),

we saw in verse 19 the word translated “evil”
indicates an active evil,
one that is “pernicious” or “destructive,”

and now, in verse 20 the word “evil”
indicates the “worthlessness”
of those deeds, their “good-for-nothingness” before God,


that second word for "evil" also refers to the fruit
that is produced from such a root:

The fruit of man's "evil", is so evil, that it brings him directly
under The Judgment of God, as we saw in John 3:18, our text;

"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

The life of man stands under God’s Judgment
because of a lack of faith and obedience (John 3:18 & 36).

"He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God", our text John 3:18.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him."
John 3:36.

The only logical conclusion that one can properly come to
concerning man’s spiritual condition before God,
on the basis of the preceding facts is that man is spiritually dead.

con't where we see that:
we are not left to draw our own conclusions in this matter,
because our text in The Gospel of John asserts this plainly.

 

[Alan Gross]

However, we are not left
to draw our own conclusions in this matter.

The Gospel of John asserts this plainly;

First, Jesus taught that man has no life in himself (John 6:53).

All of His teachings, which require a “new birth” by the Spirit,
a “coming to Him,” an “eating of His flesh,”
a “drinking of His blood,” and a “believing on Him” for eternal life,
imply this as well (e.g., John 3:1-11; 5:40; 6:53-58; 20:30, 31).

His statements that He alone is the Life and that He alone gives life,
require us to believe that apart from Him
and His gift man has no spiritual life before God
(John 10:27, 28; 11:25, 26; 14:6).

Second, Jesus taught that the unconverted man’s condition
is one of present spiritual death.

He says that the one who

“heareth My word,
and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation;
but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).

Jesus then speaks of the present time (“and now is”)

“when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:
and they that hear shall live”, from John 5:25.

A careful examination of the setting of this passage
shows that here Jesus refers to the spiritually dead.

(Jesus refers to the physically dead as those
who are “in the graves” (in John 5 verses 28 and 29).

That is, again, from John 5:25;

“when the (spiritually) dead
shall hear the Voice of the Son of God:
and they that hear shall live.”


There are three consequences under which man labors.

1). Man is destined to perish eternally, just as we saw
Jesus told Nicodemus that only those who are believers
will “not perish” and have eternal life.

All non-believers will therefore “perish” eternally,
as we see explicitly stated in our text, John 3:16.

Jesus pointed out to those in the Temple (John 8:12-59)
that those who were not believing and following Him
would die in their sin (John 8:21, 24).

They would be cast out forever (John 6:37; see also 8:35, 10:28).

2). Man is living under the wrath of God.

John the Baptist declared to his disciples
that their faith was to be placed in “the Bridegroom”,
in John 3:27-30, “the Son” in whose hand the Father
has given all things, from John 3:31- 35.

He then contrasted the situation of those who trust the Son
and those who disobey Him.

The believing one has eternal life,
but the disobedient one has the wrath of God abiding
or remaining on him, in John 3:36.

3). Man is condemned already Jesus taught
that He was not sent “into the world to condemn the world”;

there was no need for this,
because he that does not believe on Him
has been judged already, as we see from our text, in John 3:17, 18.

This judgment will be publicly declared at the last day
when they that have done evil will come forth
to a resurrection of judgment (in John 5:28, 29).

Terrible is the expectation that awaits unbelievers,
according to The Gospel of John.

Man who is wrapped in the grave clothes of spiritual death
is perishing eternally, already under God’s wrath and judgment.

For him death will not bring life in its fullness,
but judgment to its uttermost extent,
or what can only be described as eternal death.

This is the prognosis set forth by The Great Physician.

 

[SavedByGrace]

All non-believers will therefore “perish” eternally

that is not the main point of John 3:16-18, but the FACT, that GOD SO LOVES THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WITH A SAVING LOVE!

This destroys the TULI in TULIP!

 

[Alan Gross]

Very simply. John 3:16-18 destroys the TULI in TULIP, and renders it UNBIBLICAL!

Your proof text provided such a wealth of insight into the Total Depravity
of every child of Adam, I want to use it again, to show how solidly
The Gospel of John confirms Irresistible Grace in general and specifically
in John 3:16-18, (although the gist of your citing John 3:16-18 seemed to be
very simply to destroy "the TULIP in TULIP , and renders it UNBIBLICAL!",
so I can't imagine why you did that. The Gospel of John is thoroughly
saturated with The Doctrines of Grace, as is the rest of the Bible, but
John 3:16-18 is particularly rich with TULIP. Thanks for pointing it out.)

One author called John's Gospel: The TULIP Garden of God!

that is not the main point of John 3:16-18, but the FACT, that GOD SO LOVES THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WITH A SAVING LOVE!

When I get to be king, I am going to do away with people entirely rewriting
Bible passages, as their sole means on which their arguments depend.

And I'm going to start calling them and that practice their appropriate names.

This destroys the TULI in TULIP!

Again, your added confirmations giving more evidences
for the proof of Total Depravity have not gone unnoticed. Thanks again.

“Irresistible Grace”

To put this article of faith, "I", in its proper perspective, let us summarize
TULI. We have seen that since out of the mass of totally depraved men (T),
God had to have unconditionally chosen some to life everlasting (U),
or all mankind would have perished and so it is those for whom Christ died (L).

Under the present head then ("I") we are concerned with the application of the benefits of the atonement of Christ to those for whom He died and those the Father had chosen. It is important to note that what is under discussion is that God’s grace is irresistible only to those whom the Father had chosen and for whom Christ died. It is not that God’s grace cannot be resisted by any (see Acts 7:51).

1. God transforms by His Spirit those that He has chosen.

God, in sovereign grace, transforms by His Spirit those that He has chosen out of the mass of sinful humankind and given to His Son, who bore their sins on the cross.

a. The work of God.

At the very outset of his Gospel, John points out that those who receive Christ, the rightful children of God, those who believe on Christ’s name, do so because of the work of God in them (1:11-13). These are begotten of God, not because of any human privilege nor of human instrumentality. The ability to receive Him and to believe on His name is found in the gracious work of God to make them genuine children of God (1:12, 13). God in His grace is the source of the new birth.

This truth was set forth by Jesus in His meeting with Nicodemus. Jesus stressed the importance of the new birth to “see” (3:3) and to “enter the kingdom of God” (3:5). This new birth is wrought by the Spirit of God (3:5, 6, 8).

It is in consequence of this that men will look believingly
on the “lifted up” Son of man and see there that God in His love
gave His only begotten Son to give them everlasting life (3:14-16, our text)...

We notice in this gospel that Jesus Christ gives eternal life to as many as the Father (17:1) has given Him (17:2).

He gives to them the living water that springs up into ever-lasting life (4:10, 14).

The Son “quickeneth [gives life to] whom He will” (5:21), even those who are spiritually dead whom He calls to life (5:25-27).

He gives it only to those to whom He speaks, who hear His voice and who live.

Again, it is only a select group whom He calls His sheep, who know Him, hear His voice, and follow Him, for only they believe on Him (10:26-30).

To them who were given to Him by the Father, and to them only, He gives eternal life (esp. vv. 28, 29).

“draw”

Jesus used the figure of being “lifted up,” a reference to His death, as being the
means of drawing all that are His to Himself (12:32, 33).

The word “draw” indicates that His death will capture their attention, affections, and incline their wills so that they would follow Him (12:35, 36).

God in His grace irresistibly draws His own to Jesus Christ.

One other occasion where Jesus used the word “draw”
was in His discourse on the bread of life (6:22-59).

1). He taught that only those who were drawn by the Father
would come to Him and be raised on the last day (6:44).

2). These are the ones “taught by God,”
those who “have heard and learned from the Father”
(6:44; cf. Isaiah 54:13).

3). He later told His disciples that the ability to come to Him for life
was a gift of the Father (6:65).

4). Knowing this, Jesus said authoritatively,

“All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me;”

and He assures us that

“him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out” (6:37),

and “I will raise him up at the last day” (6:39, 40, 44, 54).

If a threefold cord is not easily broken,
can a fourfold promise of the Living Truth ever be repealed?...

According to our Gospel, those who were chosen by the Father
are redeemed by the Son, regenerated, enabled to believe, come to,
and receive the Son by the irresistible grace of the Triune God!

Thus man who was spiritually dead is given spiritual life,
so that he may trust, love, and obey Jesus Christ (John 14:1, 6, 15).

Those whom God transforms are not inactive or passive,
as a stone or piece of wood.

They act with all of their being in a way that pleases and glorifies God.
We see this in the following aspects of his spiritual life.

In regard to his true spiritual and saving knowledge:

1). He is no longer blind, but he can and does see the kingdom of God (John 3:3) and God the Father (1:18; 14:7-9), and has the true Light of the world to guide him through life (1:9, 8:12).

2). He is no longer deaf, but he now hears the life-giving voice of the Son of God
(5:25; 10:3, 4, 16, 27; 18:37), “the Christ” (5:24; cf. 4:42), and “the Word of God” (8:47). His ear is opened spiritually and hangs on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

3). He is no longer spiritually ignorant, but he has true knowledge of God. He knows the Lamb of God (1:29, 34), His gift, the living water (4:10,14), the Christ (4:10, 25, 26; 6:68, 69; 17:3), the Savior (4:42), the teaching (7:17), the voice of the Good Shepherd (10:3, 4, 14, 27), the true God (17:3), the name of the Father (17:6-8) in an in-creasing manner (17:26), and that the Father has sent the Son into the world (17:25). In that knowledge, he knows his need and asks to have it met by God in His Son (4:10).

How will know that a soul has been Renewed
by the Irresistible Grace of God?

In regard to the renewed man’s volitions:

1). The renewed man is one who is willing to do God’s will (7:17).
2). The renewed man’s desire is to abide in Christ’s love (15:9, 10).
3). The renewed man’s desire is to abide in Christ’s word (8:31).

In regard to the renewed man’s activity:

1). The renewed man is one who receives God’s Son (1:12, 13) out of His fullness
(1:16), favor after favor (grace for grace) to meet his need (1:16), and receives His Words (17:8).

2). The renewed man is one who believes “on His [Christ, the Word] Name” (1:12, 13; cf. 3:16, our text, 36; 6:68, 69; 9:35-39; 11:45; 20:30, 31), on the One who sent Him (17:25), Christ’s manifested glory (2:11), His word (4:41), the words of the Father (17:8), and the words of the apostles regarding Him (17:20).

3). The renewed man is one who enters the kingdom of God (3:3) through the “door of the sheep,” Jesus Christ (10:7, 9).

4). The renewed man is one who comes to Christ
(i.e., he arrives, 6:37, 44, 45; cf. v. 65).

5). The renewed man is one who “eats” the bread of God and the bread of life (6:51), the flesh of the Son of Man (6:53-56), and “drinks” the blood of Christ (6:53-56) and the water of life (4:10, 14).

6). The renewed man is one who is a disciple, or a follower of Jesus Christ. Both of these words indicate strenuous activity (see 1:34-51, 8:31; 10:27; 13:34, 35).

7). The renewed man is one who is a doer: he practices the truth (3:21) and does the works of God (6:27-29).

8). The renewed man is one who is a worshipper of the Triune God (4:23, 24; 9:38; cf. 20:27, 28).

We see in the life of the renewed man,
in all of his faculties and activities,
a new life lived in absolute dependence on God, but lived by him.

from: https://www.chapellibrary.org/api/books/download?code=dogi&format=pdf

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perseverance is your work.

Preservation of the saints is God’s work in the saints.

How is that a work?

 

[kyredneck]

You have stated falsehoods about what my opinion is.

That's @Silverhair's M.O., to get you hooked and keep drawing you down into his labyrinth of rabbit holes so that he can get his 'fix' of Calvinist-bashing. It's just that simple.

 

[canadyjd]

That's @Silverhair's M.O., to get you hooked and keep drawing you down into his labyrinth of rabbit holes so that he can get his 'fix' of Calvinist-bashing. It's just that simple.

I agree. There is never a true debate with him. I don’t officially ignore him, but do try to avoid responding to his posts.

If I respond, I always regret the attempt at dialog.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

That's @Silverhair's M.O., to get you hooked and keep drawing you down into his labyrinth of rabbit holes so that he can get his 'fix' of Calvinist-bashing. It's just that simple.

To all you calvinists out there my M.O. is to point out the error of your theology and the misuse of scripture to support it. You may not like what I do but then again why should I like what calvinism is doing to Christianity.

So @kyredneck you think scripture is a labyrinth of rabbit holes.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree. There is never a true debate with him. I don’t officially ignore him, but do try to avoid responding to his posts.

If I respond, I always regret the attempt at dialog.

peace to you

But to have a debate requires that you actually respond to points I have questioned rather than just re-posting what I have questioned. Since I disagree with your view why would you expect that I would not question what you post?

I have not hidden the fact that Gnostic teachings have been incorporated into calvinism, which anyone can confirm by doing a bit of reading. Augustine made the mistake of going back to his Gnostic philosophies in his dispute with Pelagius rather than just standing on scripture. Calvin then carried Augustine's error forward into what is now your so called Doctrines of Grace. What was error then is still error today. So in reality it is not me that you have the problem with it is Augustine and Calvin.

 

[canadyjd]

But to have a debate requires that you actually respond to points I have questioned rather than just re-posting what I have questioned. Since I disagree with your view why would you expect that I would not question what you post?

I have not hidden the fact that Gnostic teachings have been incorporated into calvinism, which anyone can confirm by doing a bit of reading. Augustine made the mistake of going back to his Gnostic philosophies in his dispute with Pelagius rather than just standing on scripture. Calvin then carried Augustine's error forward into what is now your so called Doctrines of Grace. What was error then is still error today. So in reality it is not me that you have the problem with it is Augustine and Calvin.

To have a debate both sides must be able to accurately state the opposing viewpoint including the scripture used to support it.

You have never accurately stated my position on anything.

Dialog is futile in such cases.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

To have a debate both sides must be able to accurately state the opposing viewpoint including the scripture used to support it.

You have never accurately stated my position on anything.

Dialog is futile in such cases.

peace to you

When you continue to deny reality you are correct dialog in such cases is futile.