Calvinistic Contradictions

[Wes Outwest]

You are right. And left to his own unregenerate will, man will always reject the gospel in favor of his self-will.

YOU Cannot know that to be 100% true! You are only parroting someone else's 3000 year old words.

Given the choice between living forever and punishment in a burning lake, I don't know very many men who would not choose living forever, even if it meant a dramatic alteration of lifestyle! It is just that the church is not making that choice clear!

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You are right. And left to his own unregenerate will, man will always reject the gospel in favor of his self-will.

YOU Cannot know that to be 100% true! You are only parroting someone else's 3000 year old words.

Given the choice between living forever and punishment in a burning lake, I don't know very many men who would not choose living forever, even if it meant a dramatic alteration of lifestyle! It is just that the church is not making that choice clear! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, you are quite wrong in your assumption here. Millions hear the Gospel preached every day, and are clearly told about heaven, hell, etc, and yet they still reject this. I believe that naturally, man CANNOT accept the things of God, and therefore there needs be a working of the Holy Spirit in a persons life before they come to Jesus in faith. John Wesley called this "Prevenient Grace"

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by icthus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You are right. And left to his own unregenerate will, man will always reject the gospel in favor of his self-will.

YOU Cannot know that to be 100% true! You are only parroting someone else's 3000 year old words.

Given the choice between living forever and punishment in a burning lake, I don't know very many men who would not choose living forever, even if it meant a dramatic alteration of lifestyle! It is just that the church is not making that choice clear! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, you are quite wrong in your assumption here. Millions hear the Gospel preached every day, and are clearly told about heaven, hell, etc, and yet they still reject this. I believe that naturally, man CANNOT accept the things of God, and therefore there needs be a working of the Holy Spirit in a persons life before they come to Jesus in faith. John Wesley called this "Prevenient Grace" </font>[/QUOTE]Man can clearly hear distinct choices when given in their common language, and not the "high language" of the church.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So you are saying the reason more people isn't saved is a communication problem? What exactly is the "high language" of hte church? And what does the "low language" sound like?

 

[Wes Outwest]

The low language is that which is common among the sheep.

The high language is that which is common among the seminary grads. The language the seminary teaches them to use.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The low language is that which is common among the sheep.

The high language is that which is common among the seminary grads. The language the seminary teaches them to use.

The ONLY language that will convict the sinner, is the Word of God preached faithfully, and applied by the Holy Spirit. Not many, if any, are won to the Faith through reasoning or argument.

Although I am not a Calvinist, I have to accept the teaching of Scripture. I read in Acts 16:14, that: "Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us . She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul ."

This tells me that the natural man simply CANNOT "attend" to the Word of God, without the inworking of the Holy Spirit

 

[Pastor Larry]

The low language is that which is common among the sheep.

The high language is that which is common among the seminary grads. The language the seminary teaches them to use.

I don't know any seminary who teaches grads to use high language. Seminaries are very concerned about the communication of the gospel, and homiletics is a major course of study.

Your claim is bogus. Communication isn't the problem. Paul answered that charge in 2 Cor 4 when he said that the problem is people's blindness. And the answer is that God must shine in their hearts.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by icthus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
The low language is that which is common among the sheep.

The high language is that which is common among the seminary grads. The language the seminary teaches them to use.

The ONLY language that will convict the sinner, is the Word of God preached faithfully, and applied by the Holy Spirit. Not many, if any, are won to the Faith through reasoning or argument.

Although I am not a Calvinist, I have to accept the teaching of Scripture. I read in Acts 16:14, that: "Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us . She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul ."

This tells me that the natural man simply CANNOT "attend" to the Word of God, without the inworking of the Holy Spirit </font>[/QUOTE]How is it that Lydia worshipped God if she was not able to? God opened her up to hear this person who was not of "her church". He was a "stranger in town" unfamiliar to Lydia. God told her that Paul was from Him, thus Opening her heart to heed the things that Paul was speaking.

Why is that difficult to understand? Is is because those specific words are not written in scripture?

 

[icthus]

Sorry, Wes, I can see from your posts that you do NOT understand the Biblical teaching of Salvation, as your answers are not correct.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Just what do you think the correct answers are?

Give me the details of exactly what happens when one gets saved!

Tell me exactly what God is doing to the human

Tell me exactly what the human is doing too!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:


Tell me exactly what God is doing to the human

Opening eyes completely blinded by sinful self-will having already made the provision for their salvation.

Tell me exactly what the human is doing too!

Exactly what comes natural to a sighted person... they are seeing the truth of the gospel.

The only way you could make the case that God is "forcing" someone to accept the gospel is to make the parallel case that a blind person who is healed is being forced to see.

 

[Wes Outwest]

The only way you could make the case that God is "forcing" someone to accept the gospel is to make the parallel case that a blind person who is healed is being forced to see.

Jesus healed those who were willing and wanting to be healed. If a person did not want to be healed, he would not seek out or welcome the physician, and the physician would not force himself upon the blind person!

Jesus could have spoken healing to whole towns, cities, and countries, and all who had infirmaties there-in would have been healed, whether they had heard of Jesus or not. But there is nothing recorded about Jesus where he did that! So one must gather from the text that no healing took place without the one healed wanting it. Perhaps jairus daughter is an exception, but the parents wanted it for her, and were faithful people. The centurian's servant is another possible exception, but again the centurian wanted it for his servant and sent for the physician on his servant's behalf.

As for wanting the gospel? When you are living in oppression, servatude, bondage of any kind, and hear that there is a way out, you become willing to hear the word, so that you can be lifted from your present situation to a better one.

If you don't think you are in a bad circumstance, why would you want to change?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The only way you could make the case that God is "forcing" someone to accept the gospel is to make the parallel case that a blind person who is healed is being forced to see.

Jesus healed those who were willing and wanting to be healed. If a person did not want to be healed, he would not seek out or welcome the physician, and the physician would not force himself upon the blind person! </font>[/QUOTE] Please give one biblical example of this.

In fact, give one real world example of a person who has ever been offered a sure fire, risk free cure for any of the things Jesus cured that said, "No, thanks... I like being disabled."

Your response isn't supportable from scripture... and it doesn't even make sense.

Jesus could have spoken healing to whole towns, cities, and countries, and all who had infirmaties there-in would have been healed, whether they had heard of Jesus or not. But there is nothing recorded about Jesus where he did that!

There is absolutely no parallel between this and calvinism. Hyper-calvinists argue that people who have never heard the gospel or responded in faith are saved... but true calvinists do not.

So one must gather from the text that no healing took place without the one healed wanting it.

Non sequitur. That is a terribly flawed line of reasoning with an obvious response.

No one was healed that Jesus didn't make Himself available to. Did He wrong the people who never had an opportunity to come to Him for healing? Was it a violation of the free will of either those He healed or those He didn't heal? I don't think so.

Perhaps jairus daughter is an exception, but the parents wanted it for her, and were faithful people. The centurian's servant is another possible exception, but again the centurian wanted it for his servant and sent for the physician on his servant's behalf.

These aren't exceptions. By any means of reckoning, Jesus offered healing to some but not others.

As His fame went abroad, people began to be brought to Him for healing

Did these people choose to be told about Christ or was it God's will that they be told?

As for wanting the gospel? When you are living in oppression, servatude, bondage of any kind, and hear that there is a way out, you become willing to hear the word, so that you can be lifted from your present situation to a better one.

That is so obviously not the rule, I am surprised you would even post it. Some of the most destitute people in the world reject the gospel of Christ in favor of any of a great number of false religions... these people are quite often some of the worst persecutors of Christians.

If you were speaking spiritually, you are still wrong. I know numerous people who have heard the gospel clearly many times who are none the less continuing in sin and destroying their own lives.

If you don't think you are in a bad circumstance, why would you want to change?

Your point is defeated since people who recognize they are in bad circumstances don't always change... in fact, it would be a more likely rule that they usually don't change or else replace their one demon with seven.

People don't see Jesus Christ as the solution until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and changes their spiritual nature. After this occurs, the only choice that agrees with their "free will" is to accept Christ as Savior.