Calvinists and Children

It has been done too many times to cound. John 12:32 is clear that "all" are drawn. If "all" don't come (which they don't), they have the ability to refuse the drawing of the Holy Spirit and to reject God. This is Scripture.

What doesn't make sense? I gave you a presumed "truthful" statment and asked you to supply the converse. The converse would be that everyone who does not go to my church hates chicken...which would be an "untruthful" converse statement to the truthful one, and not a "given" as you imply the converse is to be taken.

 

==So you are denying what the text actually says? That is a question and not a statement. Btw we are in Ephesians 1:4. In this verse it does have a time element otherwise the verse makes ZERO sense.

 

==Your understanding of John 12:32 sets up a clear contradiction with John 6:44. That is a problem.

 

But if they weren't the elect, they couldn't accept Christ. How can they be held accountable for that?

 

Answer the question, please.

 

...then the understanding by the majority of christendom is in error. To me, that seems to be a problem, given that ALL christendom has the presence of the Holy Spirit.

edit: gotta run and wake my son up from his nap. I will revisit this tomorrow. Have a good night.

 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Here we know what God's desire is. If God who desires all to repent (and He does), but does not save all then we have a God who lies if we follow the Calvinist doctrine.

The logic of this verse is a death blow to any notion that God arbitrarily picked one child in your family and will not pick the other.

How then do we reconcile this clear verse with the verses that tell us that God did choose and pick?

Simple: Just accept the truth of I Peter 1:1-9 Election is on the basis of foreknowledge.

What did God foreknow? He foreknew who would freely accept Christ before the foundation of the world. On this basis God declares all who will believe in time and space as thought it is accomplished in eternity on the Basis of God's Absolute Knowledge. God chose Jesus to die for our sin, but Jesus also voluntary chose to die. Jesus was not harassed to die but freely chose to do the Father’s will. This was settled in eternity before the foundation of the world. Guess what - all who are in Christ are also chosen in Him from the foundation of the world. We believe in time and space and that puts us in Him and we are thus in Him from the foundation of the world.

You see God’s foreknew this because He has Absolute Knowledge. If God does not know all actual and potential decisions and all the possibilities then He ceases to be God and would not because He could not have knows that Christ would have to die due to Adams sin. Prophecy is predicated on foreknowledge / foresight / prescience and these three words we use are explained in God’s Absolute Knowledge.

If you deny God's foresight / foreknowledge / prescience you in essence tell God He is not sovereign. A sovereign God is not held captive to the followers of Calvin and all the twist, spins, and re-defining of words that are forced on terms and statements they claim. To be sure God is not held captive to Calvinism. To say God’s sovereignty is at the mercy of free will when God is the creator of free will and so made us in His image is to call God a liar. You make decisions all the time on the bases of you being created in the image of God weather you like it or not. God is not a liar and He does desire that no one perish and that all come to repentance. This is only possible if man has free will to respond to the Gospel. The God I love and serve would not make that kind of statement and then arbitrarily pick one of your children and not pick the other one unless the choice was in their hands. Man’s salvation is seen and settled in eternity past on the basis of foreknowledge and because this is in accordance with God’s Absolute knowledge God can make the statement that you are elect, predestined, appointed etc and He does but He makes sure we understand that it is on the bases of His Absolute knowledge by which we know as foreknowledge / foresight / prescience.

Everyone that is not a Calvinist knows that all that are Calvinist are not going to move off the notion that God arbitrarily picket some but not all. Is there one Calvinist that post on here that will say that God did not pick the Elect arbitrarily out of all humanity leaving all others to remain dead (unable to believe according to Calvinism)?

This kind of salvation is fatalism. Regardless of how one presents it - if God could pick all but does not - yet picks some - it matters not concerning all the twist and spins that is applied to the ones not picked - fatalism is the end result.

Free will to believe in the Gospel supports God's sovereignty. On the other hand the Calvinist view destroys God's sovereignty.

God is Holy. If we make God out to be a liar then we destroy His Holiness. To make God the respecter of people by selecting some and not all then have God make the statement that He desires no one to perish and all to come to repentance is exactly what Calvinism does. The Calvinist position is the position that attacks God's Holiness and this is an out right assault on His character and God's sovereignty.

God's absolute knowledge is the key to understanding all this and we are clearly told that we are elect on the basis of foreknowledge.

There you have the absolute Biblical Truth from God's Holy Bible.

 

==Since the majority of "christendom" believes in works based salvation and denies eternal security I am not sure why that matters. After all the same thing could have been said to Martin Luther, could it not? Yep. Your understanding of John 12:32 sets up a clear contradiction with John 6:44.

 

==First of all they are sinners and that condemns them to hell to start with. God is under NO obligation to save anyone. Second the Bible is clear that they are held accountable for their rejection of Christ (Jn 3:18). Such rejection is what all men/women do apart from the work of God in their hearts.

 

This is a good question, but the answer may surprise you. Are you able to keep God's law? Of course you cannot, yet you are still accountable to do so. Yes, God can rightly hold us accountable for not doing what we are unable to do.

 

One can only come to Christ if the Father draws him. If the Father doesn't draw him, he cannot come, therefore if he wasn't enabled to accept Christ, he cannot be held accountable for rejecting Christ, which is what condems a person to hell.

 

==Actually, and this may being too technical, people enter hell because they are sinners (Rom 6:23). That is why it is perfectly fair for God to send them to hell, they deserve it. Salvation is a gift of grace and nobody deserves it. God is not required to save anyone.

Your "problem" (w/ the Doctrines of Grace) assumes that God is not fair in holding someone accountable for rejecting Christ when that is what they "naturally" do (ie...reject Christ). Let me ask you some questions: Do you believe it is fair of God to hold people accountable for sinning when it is natural for sinners to sin? Do you believe it is fair of God to send someone to hell if they have never heard of Christ?

 

If one is not enabled by the Lord to come to Christ -- that person is still accountable . That person will be condemned . Again , do not be Pelagian in your thinking . They believe where there is no ability , there is no obligation . That is totally false and unbiblical .

 

If someone is one of the elect they are predestined to heaven. How many alternatives to going to heaven are there? If you are aware of more than one (hell) please let me know about it. Therefore, if you aren't predestined to heaven you are predestined to _____. (Fill in the blank.)

 

Here's what our Lord said:
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Unbelief=condemnation
belief=salvation

God IS fair, therefore He offers the CHOICE to believe or to reject.
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."

 

I believe that the Bible teaches that some are foreordained to condemnation . In other words , they are predestined to Hell . Believing in double-predestination is not the exclusive domain of hyper-Calvinists . Election to life is one side of the coin -- predestined to perdition is the other . But their sins send them to Hell .

 

==And why did they judge themselves unworthy of eternal life? Because that is what man naturally does left to himself (Rom 3:9-20, Jn 6:65). Man naturally lives in rejection of God and man naturally lives in sin. Left to his own free choice man will always choose sin and rebellion. The natural man can do nothing to please God, nothing at all. A person only comes to Christ because God is at work in that person and drawing them to Jesus (Jn 6:37,44, Ez 36:26-27). Jesus makes it clear, for example, that those Jews who did not believe in Him did not believe because they were not His sheep (Jn 10:26). Notice that Jesus "DOES NOT" say they were not His sheep because they did not believe. No, He says that they "do not believe because" they "are not" His sheep. God's unconditional election of certain people determines who will believe.

 

Martin, if these Jews were not His sheep then why was it necessary that the word of God be spoken to them since they would not believe anyway?

 

So MNW , do you believe that God who hates Essau really loves him as he is in Hell ? Judas and Pharaoh and the folks who perished in the flood and all the other folks that God destroyed as recorded in the Bible are in reality loved by God ? now that's a stretch of credulity .

On another note , many have never heard the gospel -- they have never had the opportunity to refuse salvation . I don't know how anyone who reads the Scripture can believe otherwise .